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Thread: wire speed accuracy?

  1. Default wire speed accuracy?

    I measured my PowerMTS 211Si's wire speed and compared it to what was displayed. Here are the results (shown as displayed/actual):

    100/90
    200/149
    300/210
    400/282

    Is this expected? Is there a way to adjust the display to match the actual feed rate? Note: I had the tension set as recommended, and even tried other settings to be sure. I kept the mig gun and cable straight during testing. I'm using 030 steel wire. Measurements were taken after 10 seconds of feeding, then multiplied by 6.

    Thanks,
    Kevin
    Last edited by mts211si; 07-30-2015 at 12:48 PM.

  2. #2

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    A few thoughts here:
    1) I think we've mentioned this here before, but it is easy to miss. The units are digitally controlled. They have a slow run in to improve starting and will not pick up full speed until it senses an arc...therefore you cannot measure it this way.

    2) Don't worry as much about what the wire speed says as much as what you are seeing in the puddle. Why worry about it in the first place?

    3) Wire speed accuracy will vary according to the wire diameter somewhat and tension etc.

    4) The unit will change from reading wire feed speed to reading amp output when welding.

  3. Default

    Thanks Mark.

    The only reason I'm "worried" about it is I thought accurate wire speed would be important for the synergic mode... but maybe the software uses voltage and amperage measurements, and wire speed isn't needed? Yes, for normal mig mode you can use the sound/puddle, although it's nice to have the correct wire speed setting to get you there quicker.

    The slower run in speed may explain it and maybe there isn't an issue at all... so to answer my original questions: this may be expected, and there is no adjustment available.

    On a side note: any ETA on the online version of the manual for this model?

    Thanks again,
    Kevin
    Last edited by mts211si; 07-30-2015 at 01:45 PM.

  4. #4

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    Either way, in synergic mode the wire speed setting is irrelevant as your inputs concern wire diameter and metal type. In synergic mode you should still be able to override the settings if you don't like the way it is set.

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    Either way, in synergic mode the wire speed setting is irrelevant as your inputs concern wire diameter and metal type. In synergic mode you should still be able to override the settings if you don't like the way it is set.
    I had similar results as Kevin except for the 100 ipm setting
    100/110
    200/150
    300/212
    400/268
    These results were in Standard mode, not Syn mode.
    In Standard mode I would want the welder to accurately follow the panel settings. This allows me to accurately adjust based on metal thickness too.

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WeldMore View Post
    I had similar results as Kevin except for the 100 ipm setting
    100/110
    200/150
    300/212
    400/268
    These results were in Standard mode, not Syn mode.
    In Standard mode I would want the welder to accurately follow the panel settings. This allows me to accurately adjust based on metal thickness too.
    Agreed that feed speed when not welding is not relevant. So I put together a new test that measured the drive roller speed while welding. That was then converted to wire feed speed. (see photo).Name:  Test Set-Up for wire feed when welding.jpg
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    On the right side of the photo is the drive roller with yellow mark to monitor its rotation. I made a video while welding so it could record the drive roller rotation and the stop watch simultaneously. I viewed it in frame by frame mode so I could measure the time for each rotation of the shaft. The volt meter is measuring the gun voltage - I put a simple RC circuit on the meter to take care of the noise and any minor variations.
    The chart attached shows that the wire feed speed is about 25% faster than the speed as set in Standard mode. The exception is at 400in/min. But I also noticed a lot of rotation speed variation at that speed. Will probably redo that.
    The voltage runs about 10% higher most of the time.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Feed Spedd and Voltage.jpg 
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    Overall I am pleased with the welder (I only tested MIG welding) but I was hoping the settings in Standard mode would be more accurate.

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    Name:  Test Set-Up for wire feed when welding.jpg
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Size:  157 BytesName:  Test Set-Up for wire feed when welding.jpg
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  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WeldMore View Post
    Agreed that feed speed when not welding is not relevant. So I put together a new test that measured the drive roller speed while welding. That was then converted to wire feed speed. (see photo).Name:  Test Set-Up for wire feed when welding.jpg
Views: 1915
Size:  157 Bytes
    On the right side of the photo is the drive roller with yellow mark to monitor its rotation. I made a video while welding so it could record the drive roller rotation and the stop watch simultaneously. I viewed it in frame by frame mode so I could measure the time for each rotation of the shaft. The volt meter is measuring the gun voltage - I put a simple RC circuit on the meter to take care of the noise and any minor variations.
    The chart attached shows that the wire feed speed is about 25% faster than the speed as set in Standard mode. The exception is at 400in/min. But I also noticed a lot of rotation speed variation at that speed. Will probably redo that.
    The voltage runs about 10% higher most of the time.Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Feed Spedd and Voltage.jpg 
Views:	14478 
Size:	76.2 KB 
ID:	13129
    Overall I am pleased with the welder (I only tested MIG welding) but I was hoping the settings in Standard mode would be more accurate.
    That's pretty cool stuff. Definitely post back with any updates. Are you planning similar testing for synergic mode? I might print out your tables and stick them inside the door for reference. Thanks.

    Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mts211si View Post
    That's pretty cool stuff. Definitely post back with any updates. Are you planning similar testing for synergic mode? I might print out your tables and stick them inside the door for reference. Thanks.

    Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
    Thanks,
    I'll be running several more set-ups to confirm the repeatability. I will also include Syn mode. I'm still trying to figure out why the tables for Syn are set so hot (at least on my unit). Have you had success with Syn mode? If yes, what was your set up?
    EverLast tech support also passed along the max/min speed potentiometers locations. I'll play with those next week to see what effect they have.
    WeldMore

  10. Default

    Terrific! Looking forward to your updates.

    My experience with syn mode has been very similar to yours.
    Last edited by mts211si; 10-17-2015 at 05:28 PM.

  11. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mts211si View Post
    Terrific! Looking forward to your updates.

    My experience with syn mode has been very similar to yours.
    I did run additional tests. There was no difference in wire feed speed in either Standard or Synergic mode. Same data as before (repeated below for convenience).
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Feed Speed and Voltage.jpg 
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    Below is a graph showing the wire feed speed and voltage data at one particular setting.
    As the graph shows, the speed feed, although not the same as the display setting, was consistent during welding. But the voltage was both not the same as the display setting but varied quite a bit while welding. I could also hear the difference in the "sizzle".
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Synergic vs Standard.jpg 
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    The voltage was measured with a volt meter on the output as well as monitoring the welder display (a video camera was pointed at the display and a monitor was positioned next the volt meter so I could capture all the data simultaneously). See photo below of the test set-up. Both the meter and display tracked each other fairly well.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Set-up 18V-260 while welding.jpg 
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    The voltage variation did not follow the same curve from run to run. But it always had quite bit of variation.

    After EverLast viewed the data they requested I return the unit - which I did.
    EverLast has not determined if I will get a replacement or a refund. I would prefer a replacement but they currently have no stock available.

    If you want to check the voltage variation on your unit just have someone take a video of your display while welding. As soon the the arc is struck the display changes from the voltage setting to the actual output voltage. It would be great if you did and reported your results.

    Gene aka Weldmore

  12. #12

    Default

    Several things here.
    1) DC isn't DC here as it is chopped up bits of AC. Cheap meters like this can be affected be affected by it and are not the gold standard of accuracy. I know because I have a couple just like that...and have noticed differences in much more expensive ones.
    2) Drive roll rotation does not give a perfect sample of true wire speed. Wire speed can be affected by spool size and roll tension. It can also be affected by actual feeding back pressure at the puddle. Also there is a difference in figuring roll diameter and revs per minute and actual wire speed due to differences in wire diameter.
    3) Arc force settings can affect readings as well as it affects current rise time.
    4) Doing a comparative test on competitive brands will result in discrepancies as well and without those for comparison, then the information holds less value and weight.

    Not to say that it isn't an interesting tid bit of infomatino, but without something to compare to, and many variables that are not well controlled, and no consideration of the results of the welding it doesn't really make sense to put a lot of stock and time into it.

  13. #13

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    Change in sizzle and voltage is affected by stickout and deviations in exact tip to work distance which cannot be controlled unless used in a jig and consistently fed at a continuous rate.

  14. Default

    Hi Gene,

    Thanks for following up. What type of voltage variance were you seeing in your testing? I did three runs and recorded the welder display in order to capture the voltage and amperage shown. The standard deviation I calculated for the voltage was approximate .25 volts, and for amperage it was approximately 9 amps. I tried my best to last a constant bead, but others may have been able to do a better job. If the forum cooperates, I'll post the plots of my reading.

    Thanks,
    Kevin

    Name:  volts.jpg
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  15. Default

    Here are some links to the charts since the forum doesn't work very well. We should probably start using the Welding Web Everlast forum instead...?

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...ngwU2pWaFV3cTQ
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...WNzV00xTU9pUEE

  16. Default

    Here are links to the charts since the forum isn't working very well. We should probably start using the Welding Web Everlast forum instead...?

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...ngwU2pWaFV3cTQ
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...WNzV00xTU9pUEE

  17. #17

    Default

    Again, if you check other brands of machines you will see similar voltage inconsistencies due to operator problems...I have to ask, what is the purpose of this when this is perfectly normal? The biggest factors is the operator, changes/fluctuations in input power will affect voltage output while welding. ChuckE2009 (Lanse) actually has a "voltage" test on an HTP transformer machine, one that has been around a while and has sold a lot of them. You can see even in his brief tests that the voltage fluctuates up and down considerably...though it is roughly centered around a single point.

    We are working on the Everlast forum. There has been some issues with new server incompatibility that we are working on.

  18. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    Again, if you check other brands of machines you will see similar voltage inconsistencies due to operator problems...I have to ask, what is the purpose of this when this is perfectly normal? The biggest factors is the operator, changes/fluctuations in input power will affect voltage output while welding. ChuckE2009 (Lanse) actually has a "voltage" test on an HTP transformer machine, one that has been around a while and has sold a lot of them. You can see even in his brief tests that the voltage fluctuates up and down considerably...though it is roughly centered around a single point.

    We are working on the Everlast forum. There has been some issues with new server incompatibility that we are working on.
    The purpose of the measurements (for me at least) was because Gene asked for them, and I thought I'd help out. He apparently is having issues with his machine, and I have the same model. My interpretation of the the data is that the welder didn't vary in voltage all that much (STDDEV of ~ .25V). Since I'm not a machine myself, I would expect amperage to fluctuate somewhat while welding by hand. Note: I do not notice any significant change in "sizzle" while using it. My guess is that Gene's machine is not performing like mine, or he wouldn't need to send it back for repair (i.e., mine is working well).

    Thanks,
    Kevin

  19. Default

    I wasn't able to see Gene's graph until this morning (forum issues), but I noticed his voltage swings are approximately double what I was seeing. Maybe that could be chalked up to different welding techniques, or his machine is actually behaving differently. Dunno.

    Amperage will always vary based on stick out and user technique/inconsistency, but I'd imagine an ideal voltage source would not fluctuate regardless. Unfortunately, I don't believe that is achievable is the size/price of a welding power source like this one. That being said, I don't know what the correct expectations would be. Mine seems to work fine so far.

  20. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mts211si View Post
    I wasn't able to see Gene's graph until this morning (forum issues), but I noticed his voltage swings are approximately double what I was seeing. Maybe that could be chalked up to different welding techniques, or his machine is actually behaving differently. Dunno.

    Amperage will always vary based on stick out and user technique/inconsistency, but I'd imagine an ideal voltage source would not fluctuate regardless. Unfortunately, I don't believe that is achievable is the size/price of a welding power source like this one. That being said, I don't know what the correct expectations would be. Mine seems to work fine so far.
    FYI - I moved my response over to the Welding Forum so you could see the attachment.
    How about we use that going forward?
    Gene

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