Stubby #12 cups 1 inch or shorter w/ good flow?

[Welderooni]

semi-recently, I upgraded to a CK Worldwide 130 series flex-loc torch and LOVE IT! It was much easier on my hands for welding thin walled tubing for car projects (SS and AL).

Although this torch + Weldcraft #12 cup w/ large diameter lens is better than the huge wp25? Everlast torch I had before, the #12 cup (1 & 7/8" length ?) is still too tall (long) for this ck 135 series torch. It forces me to tilt the torch away from the material at an awkward angle just to fit the cup an appropriate distance from the metal.. So, that hand position of angling the torch away from the metal makes it challenging to hold steady. With smaller cups, this problem is gone, but I don't get the good gas flow of the #12.

If I had a shorter #12 cup length, the torch would be more parallel to the tubing, thus easier to keep my hand steady, thus better looking welds .

So, do you guys know of any GOOD new stubby #12 welding cups that work with large diameter gas lens and still provide good gas flow? I ask because I've heard in the old stubby ("short length") cups didn't provide as uniform gas coverage compared the full length #12 cups. I was hoping some new better designs exists, so do you guys know of any?

[Rambozo]

You will blow through a ton of argon with these but for some things they work pretty good. It's really overkill for stainless and made more for titanium. Rather than a giant cup you might try a follow shield for some of the stuff you have posted before. Also using some foil dams you can trap argon in many tight joints where you need to switch to a smaller cup to gain access. Bigger is not always better.

http://www.tectorch.com/champagne%20nozzle%20II.htm

[Welderooni]

You will blow through a ton of argon with these but for some things they work pretty good. It's really overkill for stainless and made more for titanium. Rather than a giant cup you might try a follow shield for some of the stuff you have posted before. Also using some foil dams you can trap argon in many tight joints where you need to switch to a smaller cup to gain access. Bigger is not always better.

http://www.tectorch.com/champagne%20nozzle%20II.htm

RAmbozo, it looks cool, but I'm not sold on the small diameter gas lens and also the fact that I'll blow through a lot of argon gas. What do you guys think of this nozzle and is this picture accurate?:

[Rambozo]

Even a #12 is a huge cup that is not normally required for most materials, and also requires a ton of argon with a large gas lens. Maybe you should post a pic of what you are trying to weld. Your older pics showed stainless exhaust tubing where much smaller cups are normally used. Your flowrate will need to be matched to your cup size and application. Miller has a TIG calculator that will get you in the ballpark. But the best thing is to setup test welds and lower the argon until you just start to get porosity, then increase it by 2 to 5 CFH over that baseline. Too high a flowrate will cause turbulence and suck oxygen into your weld. Also keep drafts away. For tight cluster joints, using tape or foil dams will let you hang the tungsten way out to get the tight section. Remember argon is heavier than air so make sure your part is positioned to let gravity work for you. (if possible)

[Welderooni]

I'm welding on thin walled stainless steel exhaust and aluminum tubing, ~0.065" wall thickness...mainly motorsports projects. With the #12 cup, it's easier for my hand to keep the filler rod in the argon flow, so I don't want to go lower than a shorter #11 or #10 cup because comfort is important to me when I weld for long periods of time. Plus, I noticed my welds come out nicer looking with the larger diameter #12 cup, hence my initial wanting of a #12 shorter cup.

To finish that wastegate recirculation merged piping you referred to, I found that a #8 cup with the stubby large diameter gas lens was the best combo for that tight spot. It seemed to stream the gas flow in a more focused path to fit in that crevice. The #4 was useless for that application lol.

But, I had another idea. Has anyone tried machining a thinner Teflon spacer? Is it possible, or would it present some other problem you more experienced welders are aware of? If this Teflon spacer can be reduced in thickness by half or even down to a 3rd, my hand will be in Tig Welding Comfort Heaven! :

[Rambozo]

The teflon is a heat insulator. It protects the torch from the heat of the cup. With thin wall tubing and that giant cup I rather doubt you build too much heat. so you could probably trim some off, especially with a water cooled torch. It sounds more like you need more practice. That kind of welding is done day in and day out with nothing larger than a #7. Also the main reason to use a gas lens is to allow longer tungsten stickout. With the setup in your picture the tungsten could be out at least a quarter inch from the face of the cup, so you would have a lot better visibility. I don't see the tungsten at all. It also takes a lot of argon for that setup, to get proper flow velocity.

[zoama]

CK makes what you want... but I agree with Rambozo.
Click on the pic for a larger view.

Gas Saver™ kit part numbers (pdf) http://www.ckworldwide.com/gas_saver.pdf

[performance]

The reason to use a larger cup like this isn't for better gas flow but for higher amps and larger tungstens. Actually, a larger cup without a gas lens makes it MORE difficult to establish a good gas flow. Turbulence is increased. The weld examples that are in the background look really unsteady, and my guess is that it's because you are loosing sight of the bead with the cup... A gas lens has been proven over and over to provide better flow patterns and coverage, and to provide gas coverage to the surrounding area even. If you want to use a stubby gas lens (9/20 series) then that makes more sense to me because you are going into the opposite direction of sound welding theory.

[Welderooni]

Thanks guys,

I just picked up a #8 cup to use with my small gas lens, so will be testing it today. As far as hand comfort goes, it's MUCH better than the #12 cup I was using .

[zoama]

Thanks guys,

I just picked up a #8 cup to use with my small gas lens, so will be testing it today. As far as hand comfort goes, it's MUCH better than the #12 cup I was using .

6 to 8 lpm of argon should be plenty for that. Do you back purge on stainless tubing ?

[Jason]

I need to get some stuby cups my self as I have not yet but I am with the others and think a 12 is too large. I like to use 5, 6, 7 size cups and do thin walled stuff in aluminum and stainless.