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Thread: NEW 2013 EVERLAST PowerTig 255 EXT AC/DC DIGITAL TIG WELDER

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    Graphic is probably not going to be changed at this point of development... As we said above, the start items in the hidden menu won't exist at this point. The only other real ones are the advanced pulse, and the 2T/4T setting, both of which are pulled on onto the front panel.
    I do hope you ensure that the adjustment matches the current graphic then. I hate to say that's a deal breaker, but adjusting oranges while looking at a diagram of an apple just doesn't cut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    Start settings are not adjustable or able to be programmed at this point. Low amp start for AC and DC will be around 5 amps and start similar to the 250EX in that respect.
    So the low amp start is actually lower than the 210EXT? Are the start amps automagically determined by the main amp setting?

    Will we be getting the full 250A stick like the original 250EXT?
    Penncrest Buzzbox - Infinite amp control! Man the 70's were good.
    Everlast Powerplasma 60 - Reliable unit, cuts well.
    Everlast i-MIG 250P w/spoolgun - Really smooth, plenty of cajones.
    Everlast 250EXT - Sometimes it just takes a kick in the balls...
    Everlast 255EXT - Just started playing

  2. #22

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    Redbeard
    The function works as part of adjusting the length of AC + versus the length of AC negative. All you are doing is shifting the switching point of the polarity left or right. That can be represented in several ways. Whether it is in the upper or lower section you are still adjusting the ratio of time the welder spends in either and you are always adjusting the amount of cleaning versus penetration. This was reviewed by multiple persons including industry professionals and it was agreed upon as being correct for best understanding of the "function" of the control ( what you are actually controlling or adjusting when using this function...hence the inclusion of the word clean and the common understanding of what you are trying to accomplish) and balancing the expected standardized for the US as to how it is to operate. At this point, it is too early to confirm the way it is to operate until we receive a test unit to verify the operation.

    I imagine that the unit will be at 200 amps on stick to reduce current input requirements on single phase which was an issue on the the 250 ext. Additionally the unit will likely be able to go multiphase 240 V.

    Start amps should be the same as the 250 EX. I think you are overthinking this. The start amps are designed to be a function of 2T/4T switch setting...not the foot pedal. The foot pedal will start at the low end due to its design. But just like the 250EX, start amps should be reduced to a minimum with the foot pedal to operate the best. The basic way (and we have recently confirmed this with someone who has work/ed with Miller/Lincoln in development on this hidden issue so we know we are not alone) is that the units are specified to start at a low current but in the transfer of the arc the units will momentarily surge (though our competitors have been sure this is filtered from the display) to a point that is slightly higher to establish the arc. Some welders are higher than others and this is what was being seen on the 250EXT, though it was likely too high for too long. No one has ever complained about the starts on the 250EX which we are shooting to match in performance. The 210 has an adjustment of this transfer "start" amperage on the background menu, which neither the 250EXT, or the new 255 ext has ( at this point), and it IS higher than the minimum start amp value that can be set for 2T/4T...because that is the minimum "surge" that is needed to establish the arc. Again, for AC it is 15 amps for the lowest setting, but no one has complained about the start performance...and the start amps are listed at 10...which is where the unit when plugged in with the foot pedal works. This surge can be digitally controlled and the whole start parameters can be digitally controlled on the 210 because it has solid state ignition...which neither the 250ext had or the 255ext is slated to have at this point.
    Last edited by performance; 11-30-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    This surge can be digitally controlled and the whole start parameters can be digitally controlled on the 210 because it has solid state ignition...which neither the 250ext had or the 255ext is slated to have at this point.
    You lost me, are you saying the 255 will use an arc gap instead of solid state ignition?
    Todd

  4. #24

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    Yes. That's the information I currently have.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by todmorg View Post
    You lost me, are you saying the 255 will use an arc gap instead of solid state ignition?
    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    Yes. That's the information I currently have.
    Will the gap adjustment be an adjustable thread and locknut like the 250ext, or does it adjust by bending, like the 250ex?
    Todd

  6. #26

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    The current/new ex has a different setup similar to the 250EXT...we've been silently departing from that style for some time now during the year.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    Redbeard
    The function works as part of adjusting the length of AC + versus the length of AC negative. All you are doing is shifting the switching point of the polarity left or right. That can be represented in several ways. Whether it is in the upper or lower section you are still adjusting the ratio of time the welder spends in either and you are always adjusting the amount of cleaning versus penetration. This was reviewed by multiple persons including industry professionals and it was agreed upon as being correct for best understanding of the "function" of the control ( what you are actually controlling or adjusting when using this function...hence the inclusion of the word clean and the common understanding of what you are trying to accomplish) and balancing the expected standardized for the US as to how it is to operate. At this point, it is too early to confirm the way it is to operate until we receive a test unit to verify the operation.
    I do have engineering and electronics experience in my past, so I am capable of understanding that 70%EN=30%EP=Balanced-20%. It is probably also why I can see no way to interpret the given diagram as anything other than %EN. I suppose if the factory gets it right, this will all be a moot point anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    I imagine that the unit will be at 200 amps on stick to reduce current input requirements on single phase which was an issue on the the 250 ext. Additionally the unit will likely be able to go multiphase 240 V.
    Bummer, I really liked having >200A available for stick and it never blew my breakers.

    Why does stick require more input current than TIG for the same output?

    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    Start amps should be the same as the 250 EX. I think you are overthinking this. The start amps are designed to be a function of 2T/4T switch setting...not the foot pedal. The foot pedal will start at the low end due to its design. But just like the 250EX, start amps should be reduced to a minimum with the foot pedal to operate the best. The basic way (and we have recently confirmed this with someone who has work/ed with Miller/Lincoln in development on this hidden issue so we know we are not alone) is that the units are specified to start at a low current but in the transfer of the arc the units will momentarily surge (though our competitors have been sure this is filtered from the display) to a point that is slightly higher to establish the arc. Some welders are higher than others and this is what was being seen on the 250EXT, though it was likely too high for too long. No one has ever complained about the starts on the 250EX which we are shooting to match in performance. The 210 has an adjustment of this transfer "start" amperage on the background menu, which neither the 250EXT, or the new 255 ext has ( at this point), and it IS higher than the minimum start amp value that can be set for 2T/4T...because that is the minimum "surge" that is needed to establish the arc. Again, for AC it is 15 amps for the lowest setting, but no one has complained about the start performance...and the start amps are listed at 10...which is where the unit when plugged in with the foot pedal works. This surge can be digitally controlled and the whole start parameters can be digitally controlled on the 210 because it has solid state ignition...which neither the 250ext had or the 255ext is slated to have at this point.
    Thanks for the explanation Mark, it is the start surge that I was wondering about. So is the surge on the 210EXT programmable to a lower value than the fixed setting on the 250EX/255EXT?
    Penncrest Buzzbox - Infinite amp control! Man the 70's were good.
    Everlast Powerplasma 60 - Reliable unit, cuts well.
    Everlast i-MIG 250P w/spoolgun - Really smooth, plenty of cajones.
    Everlast 250EXT - Sometimes it just takes a kick in the balls...
    Everlast 255EXT - Just started playing

  8. #28

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    RedBeard,

    The thing about welding is that most welders (people and machine) are not electronic friendly in terminology or technicality. In fact you'll find many welder companies out there do not design for use with people that possess electronic tech degrees, but rather for the layman for ease of understanding. When we first started designing these units we went through the battle of "technical" versus practical. Practical won out and it has served us well. The term pulse duty cycle versus pulse balance/ratio is one example. Welders would confuse the duty cycle of the welder with the duty cycle of the pulse. Who understands that kind of terminology? The other was the pulse amps. In reality some people call these "background amps". Who understands that? Now even I've noticed at least one of the companies (majors) has dropped the language they were using that was confusing to the customer and have even adopted the same language as ours. Miller discusses the term "cleaning" in regards to their machine with the AC balance, and uses Negative as a base the 100% mark. I had a discussion with Miller engineers about why they did that at a Fabtech show a few years back, and they both acknowledged it was because of a mistake of an "Old" school welding designer years back and they knew it was a technical error, but stayed with it because they felt like they were stuck with it because people understood what it did and it was tradition for them. So to sum up, if the panel doesn't change, and the function remains the same, and everything works on the machine works...it will be a victory. It should is not a deal breaker on the unit. The 210 has a spec'd surge of 10 on DC and 15 on AC. Even at that everything has to be perfect. Don't expect it to light up well if you are not using a small tungsten, with the other parameters just right including the arc length. It takes skill to make it work. It will work but when you are operating at an extreme low, it takes at least a small measure of skill to do it. You will not light up at 5 amps if you are holding a 1/2 inch arc gap. The 250EX though it has a spec'd value of 5 amps, best starting is still around 7-8 amps AC or DC though the surge is probably higher. You can go and look at the videos Jody has put out on both machines, it isn't really an issue because he lights up on thin material in them with both units. And compared to Miller which is stated "lower" it does seem to do a better job. If it is an issue because it won't go lower then the customer needs to be advised to to consider other options because it is at the end of our technical capability for now. Honestly I don't know what the start surge is on the EX because it never has been an issue. I am not going to worry about it at this point. If it is only as low as the 210 we will accept it. I am sure you won't be finding Miller or Lincoln discussing actual "surge" publicly for a comparison though. At this point we don't know until we get the units ourselves for testing. Duncan is returning shortly to China.

    As a person with electronics background, I am sure you understand that the unit will not put out more power than is put into it. (you are also limited by loss of efficiency) That is the case with stick. IF the limits of the machine are set for a certain breaker size, then the power consumption must be at or below that threshold. While amps are frequently discussed as part of output, voltage is not. You also have volts as part of the output though it remains relatively fixed and is not adjustable on a TIG or Stick unit. However for stick welding Voltage output is higher than TIG for best operation. So for a machine to prevent higher demand on the electrical system than is desired, the stick amps are limited to keep total wattage the same as stick, which means the amps have to be limited to a lower value for us.
    Last edited by performance; 12-04-2012 at 11:43 AM.

  9. Default

    Happy New Year to All ..... now back to it!

    Since nobody has seen one of these run, it may already work like I hope, but here's my wish.

    Since the picture of the panel shows a selection for 2T, 4T, and Pedal, it would be nice if the machine did Not automatically assume you want the amperage control moved out to the remote when it sees the pedal plugged in. If you select 2t or 4t, with the pedal plugged in, it would be good to have it use Panel-set amperage and sequences, and the pedal's switch.

    Basically I'd like to use the pedal switch in 2t and 4t, this would be a great feature that does not require any work to impliment, as the hard work is already done, finding room on the panel and putting in a "Pedal" switch and indictor led.

    It does require NOT doing the extra work of automating a pedal-sensing circuit. Making stuff automatic, removes operator control, and along with it some convienience or capability.

    Really looking forward to using this machine.

    BTW, When do you need my old EXT sent back? I've not heard anything about it this year, so call me when you want it.

    Jim
    Last edited by JimMinKent; 01-04-2013 at 07:31 PM.

  10. #30

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    I'd ask Oleg about the send back time direct.
    The current 250EX series is made like you are talking about, and we get more complaints and service calls about it than we do compliments....In fact never got one "like" about it. It's not an issue if you understand how it works, but it does add an extra step in their that you must deal with. It may add capability, but not convenience for most. We are shooting for overall operability. There is little commercial use to make the foot pedal to act as a switch, but perhaps that is because there aren't any units that I can think of rigged that way...so no market has been developed.. The amperage will be limited on the panel though, as far as the main welding amperage. The pedal will operate within the maximum defined amperage range. A switch could be added to the pedal itself, though to remove the auto sense feature which will bridge the 6 and 7 pins which normally on our other models are bridged to signal the pedal is plugged in. The pedal then would be read as a torch switch if the pins are open...Though more thought would need to be put into it.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimMinKent View Post
    Since nobody has seen one of these run, it may already work like I hope, but here's my wish.

    Since the picture of the panel shows a selection for 2T, 4T, and Pedal, it would be nice if the machine did Not automatically assume you want the amperage control moved out to the remote when it sees the pedal plugged in. If you select 2t or 4t, with the pedal plugged in, it would be good to have it use Panel-set amperage and sequences, and the pedal's switch.

    Basically I'd like to use the pedal switch in 2t and 4t, this would be a great feature that does not require any work to impliment, as the hard work is already done, finding room on the panel and putting in a "Pedal" switch and indictor led.

    It does require NOT doing the extra work of automating a pedal-sensing circuit. Making stuff automatic, removes operator control, and along with it some convienience or capability.
    I would say it would be easier and more ergonomic to just plug in a dedicated foot switch for that function. Using the pedal as a foot switch will have a lot of extra travel and not be as easy to get crisp starts and stops. I have foot switches on a lot of equipment and you can get real nice heavy duty ones for cheap. Since I usually work alone, having both hands free is always nice. I even have an extension cord with a real tough foot switch wired in, so that I can plug in portable tools.
    Long arc, short arc, heliarc and in-the-dark!

  12. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    I'd ask Oleg about the send back time direct.
    The current 250EX series is made like you are talking about, and we get more complaints and service calls about it than we do compliments....In fact never got one "like" about it. It's not an issue if you understand how it works, but it does add an extra step in their that you must deal with. It may add capability, but not convenience for most. We are shooting for overall operability. There is little commercial use to make the foot pedal to act as a switch, but perhaps that is because there aren't any units that I can think of rigged that way...so no market has been developed.. The amperage will be limited on the panel though, as far as the main welding amperage. The pedal will operate within the maximum defined amperage range. A switch could be added to the pedal itself, though to remove the auto sense feature which will bridge the 6 and 7 pins which normally on our other models are bridged to signal the pedal is plugged in. The pedal then would be read as a torch switch if the pins are open...Though more thought would need to be put into it.
    Thanks Mark, I understand this is all speculation, but it seems there is a feature that is included but is not operational, that of the "Pedal" button and indicator LED. If the machine knows when the pedal is in circuit, then the "Pedal" mode button is not actually used, I suppose the led may come on when it sees the pedal. I had planned to provide a switch to defeat that automatic operation, depending on the actual behavior if necessary. But I still hold out hope that, because the button is available to the operator, it will be controlled at the panel. Please don't try extra hard to remove the manual capability that it appears to have currently, I will use it and never complain! My Sycnrowave 250 has this level of operator control.

    Rambozo has a good point using a good dedicated foot switch, and having both hands free is one of the goals. Another is to minimize cord swapping from pedal to torch switch to foot switch, etc. One press of the panel button gets you hot-tack mode, another press, and your tig welding.

    My old EXT pedal fires the microswitch in the first 1/16th inch, which is useable for what I have in mind, although a lot bigger than needed. I want to streamline my torch handle as much as possible maybe using a pc board switch as has been done before...

    Thanks all for the input.

    Jim
    Last edited by JimMinKent; 01-04-2013 at 10:16 PM.

  13. Default

    One last thought, the 255 is not directly comparable to your EX experience. The confusion came by having 4t available to the novice, but is probably solved now that the EX panel clearly has a 2T/Pedal position.

    Jim

  14. #34

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    The new pedal setup, come to think of it, should not require but 5 wires for the future with this setup (hence the pedal selection) which is all that is required now, but the requirement for the bridged 6 and 7 pins will likely be removed as it has been in the new MTS series. They'll just be "dummy" positions. The goal (and stated so by the factory) is to have the unit auto sense the Ohm pedal being used. Although the connectors will have to be changed to fit ours, that will allow other name brand pedals to be used with our unit.

  15. Default

    When should we expect a call regarding the 250ext return? I have been waiting since November for a call and have not heard anything.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwaltnak View Post
    When should we expect a call regarding the 250ext return? I have been waiting since November for a call and have not heard anything.
    I will restrain myself from posting a video of a cricket sound tonight.
    Miller 252
    PowerTig 250 EXT
    Evolution Rage 2
    48X6 inch Belt Sander w/ 9 inch Disk Sander
    ...

  17. #37

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    I am waiting on some paperwork and still got time . so few people on the forum are the last once to get a call pretty much rest is the units back at CA
    Should be 7-8 people left and all on our forum.


    255EXT testing doing well . Around 500+ units were actually already sold in EU and doing fine. We still want to test as much as possible.

    Duncan just arrived to our factory and will post some pics soon

    Oleg
    Oleg Gladshteyn
    Phone: 650 588 8082 / 877 755 WELD
    Cell: 415 613 6664 ONLY IF YOU REALLY NEED IT
    Email: oleg@everlastwelders.com
    Website www.everlastgenerators.com

    www.linkedin.com/pub/oleg-gladshteyn/48/b08/875

  18. Default

    Thanks Oleg,

    As long as you're fine, I'm fine, and I can still use my ext while it's here.

    That's very nice news on the first 500, I'm sure Duncan will keep them on track for a successful North American variant. I also look forward to any pix, specs, or anectodes about this project.

    Will they reprint the front panels to have the model correctly stated as the 255EXT?

    Now here is my last wish for today, since it only has One knob, can we have a nice one, maybe like the 250EX amp knob?

    Okay, now that I've spent all of my wishes for this week, I bid you each good night.

    Jim
    Last edited by JimMinKent; 01-05-2013 at 08:31 AM.

  19. Default

    I can't wait to get hold of this unit. Looking forward to the release here in the US

  20. #40

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    This is EU version. Ours will have new look and more features



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    Oleg Gladshteyn
    Phone: 650 588 8082 / 877 755 WELD
    Cell: 415 613 6664 ONLY IF YOU REALLY NEED IT
    Email: oleg@everlastwelders.com
    Website www.everlastgenerators.com

    www.linkedin.com/pub/oleg-gladshteyn/48/b08/875

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