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Thread: Who's correct? Manual or Google?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Cambridge, ON. CA
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    111

    Question Who's correct? Manual or Google?

    It's been bothering me a bit and I need to get it off my chest. What's with the wiring diagram in the manual for the 140ST? The polarity is reversed from what we have here. Is my whole house and my neighbours whole houses wired incorrectly or is the polarity different from the US outlets vs the Canadians. Probably the same electrician did both houses. Very common back in the day, I hear.

    My stove is 240v (NEMA 14-60) with 120v accessories so it's wired for 120v internally from the factory (Neutral for 120v). I assume it's correct and to code but still the polarity is opposite from what's in the manual. Maybe the 240v wiring in the house is to blame for this. The house is old too. That really doesn't excuse all the sites I've researched that says common/neutral/white wire goes to the large spade. Maybe google and all the sites available to me in the western world are incorrect.

    Am I just seeing things or is there come conspiracy to keep me in the dark about outlet wiring!? Has anybody had these issues?

    PS: I'm running on 240v anyways so polarity is not an issue but I'm too lazy to carry a multimeter with me to check every outlet before I hook up. Plus I don't have room in my carrying case for one.
    Last edited by Tanh; 11-21-2012 at 03:59 PM.
    PowerArc 140ST
    Victor VPT-100FC

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Disneyland
    Posts
    2,659

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanh View Post
    It's been bothering me a bit and I need to get it off my chest. What's with the wiring diagram in the manual for the 140ST? The polarity is reversed from what we have here. Is my whole house and my neighbours whole houses wired incorrectly or is the polarity different from the US outlets vs the Canadians. Probably the same electrician did both houses. Very common back in the day, I hear.

    My stove is 240v (NEMA 14-60) with 120v accessories so it's wired for 120v internally from the factory (Neutral for 120v). I assume it's correct and to code but still the polarity is opposite from what's in the manual. Maybe the 240v wiring in the house is to blame for this. The house is old too. That really doesn't excuse all the sites I've researched that says common/neutral/white wire goes to the large spade. Maybe google and all the sites available to me in the western world are incorrect.

    Am I just seeing things or is there come conspiracy to keep me in the dark about outlet wiring!? Has anybody had these issues?

    PS: I'm running on 240v anyways so polarity is not an issue but I'm too lazy to carry a multimeter with me to check every outlet before I hook up. Plus I don't have room in my carrying case for one.
    Be sure to follow CEC for your area.

    Here is what I did, no meter required to test, and it fits in the case.

    http://www.everlastgenerators.com/fo...hread.php/3539

    There is a difference between the NEMA 14-50 you have and the NEMA 6-50 mentioned in the manual. While it may seem that the colors are reversed between the wide blade and the narrow, what is really going on is the the blades are reversed. This is to prevent plugging a 120V plug into a 240V outlet that share the same blade spacing. If you look at the whole NEMA chart it will make sense as they share a lot of configurations to reduce the number of different plug spacing's.
    I know a little about Canadian electrical and they do follow NEMA standards, but there are some differences. Be sure to follow CEC for your area.

    For 240V there is basically no polarity difference between the two hot legs, they are different phases, but for things like your welder that doesn't matter. However, on 120V your welder is sensitive to polarity as one side will become neutral. Then the polarity matters, and the neutral must be on the white. If you install a NEMA 14 plug, you can leave out the neutral blade as you will have no wire for it. This will also let you lug it into your stove (NEMA 14-50) or your dryer (NEMA 14-30). I've seen other machines that come with a nice moulded plug made special as a NMEA 14-30/50 with only 3 blades, but I have no idea where to buy them so I have to use the giant ones I can get. There is a difference in blade spacing so you won't mix up a NEMA 14-50 with a NEMA 6-50.
    Long arc, short arc, heliarc and in-the-dark!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    Cambridge, ON. CA
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    Yeah, I found out the hard way. I anticipated getting the welder and downloaded the manual which shows the 6-50 plug configuration. So guess what? I bought a 6-50 plug and found out it doesn't fit. Oh well.

    Don't have a dryer plug or any other 240v plug other than the 14-50 and they're about 50 bucks at the "home deep". I took it to the counter for a price check because I couldn't believe my eyes. The recepticle was 4 bucks and the plug was indeed 50. WTF is up with that! Building an adapter cable is gona be riduculously expensive, up there with the cost of running a new line if I do it myself. Crazy! I have a dislike for retail.

    BTW the post was about the 120v 5-20 plugs, seeing that the plug shown in the manual states white to the short spade for 120v, I thought it was a misprint. I'll just wire for my house and carry a multimeter if I go anywhere else.
    PowerArc 140ST
    Victor VPT-100FC

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    Disneyland
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    The manual isn't the best for that, as they use the same diagram for both 120 and 240 and it really should be two different plugs. What they are showing is a 6-50. For 120 the white goes to the wide blade where for 240 the white goes to the narrow blade. Actually for 240 it doesn't matter which blade, but the wiring standard looking at the outlet with the ground pin up is white goes to the right. On 120V outlets this will be a wide blade, on 240V outlets this will be a narrow blade. The blades are swapped, not the wires between a 5-50 and a 6-50.

    My local Home Depot has 14-50 plugs for about $14. Also They have 14-50 pigtails for stove installation that you could use as the start of an adapter, just add the appropriate outlet to the end. I went for the ultimate in short adapters and just installed the outlet right into the plug, that way I could carry it in the case.
    Long arc, short arc, heliarc and in-the-dark!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Cambridge, ON. CA
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    Nice Idea about the adapter. The home Depot sells one too that converts the 14-50 to a 5-15 for those who convert over to gas. Thought about buying it and asked the CSR about how it's wired. She had no clue and just walked away. I figured I could have bought it and reverse engineered it so see what goes where but it costs close to 60 bucks.

    If I'm out and about I'll run it on 120v cus it's more readily available. Space is tight in the case as it is. I have a 4" grinder, gloves, brush, file, leads, mask and Rods in there. Everything I need for stick except helmet and maybe extension cord.

    But now this is getting off topic. It's good that others know about the difference between the plugs and neutral locations cus if you didn't you'd have a higher chance of frying your welder.
    PowerArc 140ST
    Victor VPT-100FC

  6. #6

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    Home Depot really sucks on their pricing for a lot of things ... here in Oregon we have a place called Jerry's great pricing for most things but their price on steel stock sucks and they don't have much for black smithing (neither does H Depot) ... unfortunately when I went to get a plug for my 200DX all they had was an empty box where the plugs were supposed to be ... so I had to go to HD ... I don't recall which setup I needed to use but it didn't cost no half a C note ... that's insane!
    Last edited by Winky; 11-22-2012 at 02:29 PM. Reason: spelling
    Powertig 200DX
    Lincoln 180c
    Hobart Handler 125
    Miller Thunderbolt
    and a bunch of other tools

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Cambridge, ON. CA
    Posts
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    The HD price was just an example. I went to 4 different places and believe it or not, the depot was the cheapest. Even my regular electrical supply had them for a premium. They treat me well and last time I was there I got 50' of 10/3 for 17 bucks. Everything is getting pricier here.

    Anyways I picked up different types of electrodes today. Hobart 1/8" 6011, 3/32" 6014, Fleetweld 1/8" 7018 and 1/16" 6011s. Didn't get enough time to test them out today. Maybe tomorrow.

    BTW, I like those mini bikes you do up. A buddy on a bike forum I frequent had a few as his avatar and I just thought they were the bees knees. lol
    PowerArc 140ST
    Victor VPT-100FC

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanh View Post
    The HD price was just an example. I went to 4 different places and believe it or not, the depot was the cheapest. Even my regular electrical supply had them for a premium. They treat me well and last time I was there I got 50' of 10/3 for 17 bucks. Everything is getting pricier here.

    Anyways I picked up different types of electrodes today. Hobart 1/8" 6011, 3/32" 6014, Fleetweld 1/8" 7018 and 1/16" 6011s. Didn't get enough time to test them out today. Maybe tomorrow.

    BTW, I like those mini bikes you do up. A buddy on a bike forum I frequent had a few as his avatar and I just thought they were the bees knees. lol
    Thanks I've been riding for a half century so it was second nature to start making them ... there is another forum member (Donor76) who makes great ones his name in Ruslan and he is an old school fabricator who lives in Russia ... his work will knock your socks off ... check it out. Good luck with your project let us know how that 7018 works out for you.
    Last edited by Winky; 11-23-2012 at 12:28 PM. Reason: typo
    Powertig 200DX
    Lincoln 180c
    Hobart Handler 125
    Miller Thunderbolt
    and a bunch of other tools

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