Egli/Vincent

Fritz Egli is a Swiss frame builder. In the late 1960s he took the most powerful motorcycle engine available at that time, the 1000cc Vincent V twin from the 1946-1955 and put it into a frame of his own design. He made about 70 of these Egli-Vincents before moving on to build custom frames for all of the major Japanese brands as well as race car frames.

Today the Egli-Vincents are a collector bike and a number of bike builders have built replicas.
I'm doing likewise, although my frame strays a bit from the original Egli.
I'm using SS 316 tubing, all .065 wall except the steering head and swing arm pivot tube.

Starting point was to machine up a steering tube to fit the bearings and stem for the front end I'm using (2003 GSXR 750) and cut appropriate shapes into the top spine (4" o.d. tube about 18" long) which is also the oil tank.
All welds and some cuts are done with an Everlast 205 multifunction.

Why dont you post a picture of the original design and a rendering of your updated design if you have one? I for one would like to see it.

Where would you get a Vincent engine today ???

Black Shadow or Black Lightning ?

Cheers,
Rivets

Here is a link to a Godet Egli-Vincent. http://www.motopp.com/upload/104s10w.jpg

Patrick Godet builds these to order in France. He has the blessing of Fritz Egli. Actually, I think Patick's version of the Egli is a bit prettier than the original, maybe a bit more sleek.
Patrick uses all new parts for the engine.

I'll be doing the same except I will use a number of key parts supplied by Australian Vincent Hotrodder Terry Prince. Terry offers a 92mm top end kit (stock is 84mm) with his own high output heads and will build stroker cranks to order. He has built me a 102mm stroke crank(stock is 90MM) so the engine will displace 1360CC. The engine will be tuned above the level of the Black Lightning, plus have the extra 360CC.

For build purposes I'm using the 1000cc engine out of my 1947 Rapide.

I have a drawing of an original Egli, but will do my own full scale drawing of the frame I'm building.
I'm still working on the back end of it and will probably do some experimentation with the geometry there to get suspension progression.

Glen

I'm going to follow the Egli design where I can, but build the back end more like an original Vincent except use a mono shock from a GSXR and fit a big back wheel and tire.

this means I will need to shift the engine from standard position some in order to get the chain line right.

Here is the spine all welded up (tig) The purge worked well, back side of weld is silver.

The spine or upper frame member fits onto the GSXR front end like it was made for it!

I guess it was made for it.

I had to make some special head brackets from billet aluminum. The Vincent was the first bike to use the engine as a stressed member of the frame. The engine just hangs from the top spine by the head brackets, there is no lower frame or cradle. Egli followed the original Vincent quite closely with his design but lightened things up some.

The originals were in cast iron, so these aluminum brackets will shave about 4 pounds off and shift the engine 1.25" to the right so that the chain should line up when using a much wider than stock rear wheel.

impressive work man!

thanks presure2.


Here it is with the top spine lined up over the head brackets, mounting tangs to follow (to connect spine to head brackets)

I got a bit further with the bike this week and also had an interesting repair job come in.

The first picture shows the item I'm repairing. It's part of a large bakery machine and is made of cast iron, so I'll stick weld it with nirod. It'll need preheat and post heat to be a successful repair.

The second photo shows a couple of SS "thread spools" I made on the lathe. Thesec will get welded into half circle notches that will get cut into the lower rear frame tubes. The spools will take the rear lower engine mount bolt (next set of photos will probably show that area)

The third picture shows the front engine mount tang made and tacked in place.


Glen

lookin good so far dude!

progress report:

pic 1 is the rear top engine mount tang. There will be one of these welded to each side of the top spine or oil tank. A bolt goes through these and the head bracket to make the rear top engine to frame connection. The hole in the tang gets slotted because the Vincent engine expands when it gets hot. For this reason the through bolt gets fully tightened then backed off 1/4 turn (lock nutted). I thickened it up in the area of the bolt hole because that is the way an original Vincent looks in this area, even though most Egli builds didn't bother with that detail.

pic 2 shows the start of fitting the 7/8" od x .065 wall tubing that forms the rear part of the frame.

pic 3 shows a bit of wooden jigging that will hold the seat rails in place.

pic 4 shows the fit of the coped out tubing. I did the cope cuts on the milling machine by measuring the angle with a carpenters bevel square, setting that angle on the mill, then making the cut using a 7/8" dia. hole saw and lots of coolant.

Glen

I finished fitting the small dia. thin wall tubing and then removed the frame from the engine for final welding. There is a temporary brace fitted where the engine sits. This should keep dimensions correct.

The small tubing is 7/8" OD .060 wall. I found it challenging to weld the saddle joints neatly. Good thing the fits were OK or it would have gone badly, I'm sure!

Glen

wow, incredible work and talent. are vincent motorcycles your main motorcycle passion or just motorcycles in general?. I was paralyzed in a motorcycle accident by a hit and run driver I love motorcycles and I still ride a quad. Tried a dirt bike but trying to find something to pull up next to and lean against is pretty hit or miss last time I tried it I made the stop perfect next to a tree but..... I fell away from the tree and with my leg stuck under the bike I got burned pretty bad. Anyway I digress Keep the pictures coming looks like a sweet bike you got going there.

thanks Don. Vincents are my main interest but I'm also interested in other old bikes and dirt bikes as well.

Very sorry to hear about your accident.

I Am more into sport bikes a still have a few parts knocking about. I may tinker around with trying to convert an older GSXR 1100 I have into a Can-Am Spider clone. Major obstacle would be the grears cause it's not legal for a paraplegic to operate a street legal vehicle in California unless it has an automatic transmission. and I would also need reverse. That would now lead me into unknown territory. I also have a few Suzuki RGV 500's That I would love to convert ( 2 stroke V4 goodness ) I have 4 complete engines and half a dozen frames, fork sets, Marvic wheels ect . The Great Thing About This Idea is I don't have to touch anything from the tank back, just gotta find the right bike to do it with.

Pipe dream most likely but who knows.

My Mom is a recently retired aerospace Metal broker so I still have the connections with the owners to go dig through their rems for aulm, mag, ti ect. That is my next project replace the mild steel heavy frame of my power wheelchair with a custom alum or Ti one and shed 30 lbs.

good luck to you and hope to see more progress from you on your project soon, it's inspiring

Pipe dream most likely but who knows.

A friend of mine has a Canam Spyder in bright yellow. He is about 350 lbs and wears a bright yellow and black riding jacket. When he is on the bike heading toward you it looks like a giant Bumblebee is coming at you!

I finished the welds on the forward portion of the frame and reinstalled it on the engine.
I think of it that way because the Vincent engine is actually a stressed member of the frame, it's crankcase does the job most double cradle frame lower portions do.

Now it's time to figure out the rear frame member and suspension geometry. I threw together a wooden disc , axle and temporary swing arm made of some rusty old tubing.
I know what I want the wheelbase to be, so that means the swing arm length is a fixed number. The location of the shock pivot points at top and bottom are completely variable so I'm in for several hours of trial and error.
I'm searching for the right combo that gives 5.5" of rear wheel travel in a progressive manner, that is, I want the wheel to lose mechanical advantage over the shock as the suspension is compressed.

Glen

Lookin good ... I dunno something about the way that motor is just hanging there scares me even though I know it's actually making the whole thing stronger. that purple front wheel has to go though LOL

yep the purple is ugly.

I'm thinking the wheel treatment is going to be powder coated satin black for the wheel centre and raised centre part of the rims then polished aluminium for the remaining outside flat portion of the rims. Where the black meets the polished aluminum I'll apply a 1/8" wide red stripe. This treatment is to pay respect to the original Vincent which had chrome wheels with black wheel centres and a thin red stripe where the black met the chrome. The centre portion of the al. tank, the fenders complete and the rear cowl will all be the same red, probably Ferrari Red.

The Vincent was considered the first "frameless" design in that the engine did the work of part of the frame. This lightened the bike up a lot. The Egli frame is connected to the engine in the two top locations plus the struts at the rear of the spine go down to connect at the swing arm pivot location, so in that way it is more rigid than a Standard Vincent which only connected to the spine frame in the two top locations.
I agree, the Vincent idea looks a bit unusual at first, but that was Vincent, they broke the mould in every way. They also broke the speed records at the time and still hold many records!
To this day the record for World's fastest unfaired motorcycle is held by a Vincent.

can't wait to see more, there is a show on a channel here called HD Theater . The show was called cafe racer ... loved it. found some pictures that maybe you could comment on. is this the look your going for minus the mods and updated parts?

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Still gotta love the spoke wheels :D

The bike on the left in your post is one commissioned by Bernard Li a (now deceased) businessman from California. He bought the rights to use the Vincent name in the US only. This bike used a Honda engine. The idea was universally hated by Vincent owners and club members plus a good deal of other Brit motorcycle followers. His plan was to produce and market these bikes.

Without a Vincent engine it just isn't a Vincent. They sound different, look different and are built differently than any other motorcycle engine. I'm not sure if the photo is computer generated or is an actual bike, I can't remember if he got any built.
Anyway, the whole project flopped.

The bike on the right in your post is a Rapide 1000, same as the one I borrowed the engine from for this project, except it has had the seat changed.
The standard Vincent is still a very nice touring bike, loads of grunt, comfy seat and a very smooth engine. My wife and I have ridden down to California from Vancouver BC on my '47 Rapide 3 times now, no problems at all. It just floats along two up and loaded with luggage.

The first photo in my post is of a very nice Egli Vincent built by Jos Den Ouden of Holland.
I met him at the 07 International Vincent Rally in the Isle of Man.
The IOM racing committee invited Vincent owners from all over the world to do a lap of the IOM TT race circuit, the most famous race circuit of them all. It is the motorcycling equivalent of the 24hr Lemans. It started in 1907 so this was part of their 100th Anniversary celebration.

183 of us went around. The circuit is 34 miles with 234 corners!
There was no limit on speed, so it quickly turned into a race. There were 3 crashes , one airlift of an ijured rider, but other than that it was great fun. There is a youtube video of it somewhere, I'll find a link.
The other two photos show my Rapide set up for touring. After the IOM event we toured England and Scotland for 2500 miles on the bike without a problem. I think the second photo is in the Penine hills not far from Skipton, England. This was the trip of a lifetime (my first airflight done at age 52!)

here's the link the the IOM lap in 07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b96qUn1EKsI

I'm in for a shot at 1.34 and again at 4.00. That is my 1947 Rapide engine # 38 (38th Vincent built after ww2) going by . The bike I'm passing is a 1955 fully enclosed model, either a Black Prince or a Black Knight. This was to be the last year of production for the Vincent.
I still haven't gotten used to the look of the fully enclosed bikes, although I suppose they were the way of the future when one looks at the shape of modern bikes with all of their plastic fairings.

The photo is of me taking a rest break at the Royal Lochnagar Distillery in Scotland after a hard day of riding. The Distillery is handily located right next door to the Queen's Summer Residence , Balmoral Castle in Scotland.

Great Photos I did come across the Egli Vincent in your first picture along with a lot of other very nice modified Vincents, Great stuff. I am also sure I saw that picture of you laying there in someones slide show on youtube LOL. Funny you Bring up the IOMTT I was scheduled to race in 88 in Prod c but high sided in a race 4 weeks prior, tore up my left shoulder and broke my left scapula. Never got to ride the track although I was there for the race, Joey Dunlop won it that year. After that injury I wasn't the same Didn't race anymore GP and even had a hard time with supersport at club level . My accident in 93 put an end to all that for good .

I have made the ride from Vancouver to Ca 2x myself . Fly up to purchase a Canadian Non-emission controlled Bike and ride it back LOL Pissed me off when they started putting cats in the pipes on the 2 stroker road bikes here in ca back in 83?

Great looking bike BTW.

I think I have the rear frame memeber geometry figured out OK. Here is the material needed, just 14 lbs total minus whatever I remove from the solid chunk of round stock (pivot tube) It will get machined for roller bearings and a hollow axle. I think I will make the hollow axle out of aluminum. So the finished weight of the RFM without shock should be around 11 pounds.

This bike should weigh right around 360 lbs dry finished according to my calculations so far.

That is very light for a 1000 and really skimpy for a 1360.By comparison a new GSXR 1000 weighs about 390 dry, a Honda rc51 is 440 lbs and an original Vincent weighs about 460.
If I can find Magnesium cases then the weight will drop another 22 pounds to about 338 finished. With a 1360cc motor in there it should really get up and leave town!

Glen

The bottom part of the swing arm or RFM is done. I still need to make a tower for the bottom mount of the monoshock. The chain line and wheel centre line are both good.
It's starting to look like a motorcycle!

sure is, great to see it taking shape. It's gonna be a great looking bike when your done . just the way the tank connects to the neck looks scary to me. I know the stainless is plenty strong and your welds look great but still gives me the willies thinking about that thing at over 120 O.o. On a side note I just bought a set of yamaha banshee front arms on ebay for $80 I now have my Front end to convert one of my bikes to a can am type bike :)

I will start a thread once I get my 250ex and can get thing moving along. I think I will be using a Ducati paso 750 that has been in the shed for 5 years.

Attachment 1304

No worries on the frame strength, it's a design that's been ridden and raced for over 60 years and millions of miles.
Here is the famous photo of Rollie Free setting the world record for Motorcycle land speed on a Vincent Black Lightning in 1949. He went 151mph on a production Lightning.
At the time there was no other production motorcycle or car that could even come close to this speed.
A few years later this record was bumped to 187mph by Russel Wright of New Zealand, also on a production Vincent Black Lightning.
Russel was a house carpenter who wanted to set a speed record, so he ordered a new Vincent. He contacted the F.I.M, who provided the necessary recording equipment ,then went out and did it.

It's interesting that right up until a few years ago the Vincent from the 1940s was still the World's Fastest Production motorcycle. They were obviously many decades ahead of the pack in design.

The RFM is now complete. The rear suspension appears to work really well, but I'll need to ride the bike in order to dial it all in.
I have seen a couple of RFMs similar to this built with a straight piece of square tubing welded to the swing arm at about a 15 degree angle to the vertical for the shock tower or bottom shock mount. That piece always looks awkard, especially once the cuved fender is mounted to it.
I thought it would look nicer if the shock tower was a curved box section with a radius to match the wheel/fender it sits in front of.

I used the plasma cut funtion of the PU205 along with my homebrew weld positioner to cut a couple of curved 1.5" wide side pieces of .065SS for the box. These are at the radius of the wheel plus the space between wheel and shock tower.
I cut two more straight straight pieces of .065. The straight pieces were clamped to the curved sides(bent around the curves) then tig welded.

I thickened the very top of the box up for the shock mount hole, then drilled the hole thru on the mill.
The curved box turned out to be quite nice and the fender will snug right up against it on the wheel side.

gotta love that little multifunction Everlast!

Glen

amazing work sir, that bike will be a real looker as we as something no one else has. I cant wait to see it with the rear tin in place with the seat that will complete, and define the look of the bike. for the front fender are you going with a sport bike type fender that covers alot of the side of the wheel or with a period type fender? . Also what about the rear brake?, I am assuming the vincent used a mechanical linkage and I see you have a rear with a disk on it what position are you going to have the pegs at, forward cruiser style or rear-sets? on the right side of the bike I think I see a break level tucked behind the kick starter but no foot peg. If the position of the peg is going to be in that area I guess the master for the rear disk could be placed on the frame where the rear sub-frame converges to a v point by te swing arm pivot.

Great build ... Love the pics , keep em coming :)

You will definitely have something unique, a thing of beauty. A real work of functional art. I've always dreamed of experiencing the Isle of Man. (If you can't tell,I'm envious!!)

thanks Tony and Don.

I'm at a point now where I need to contemplate the things Don mentions- footpeg location, rider position, fender and tank style etc. The lever on the right side is the original vincent Gear lever. Being an old brit bike,the Vincent is the opposite of Japanese and other modern bikes, so right hand shift. To deal with this I have flipped the rear wheel over which put the disc on the left. The brake lever and hydraulic cylinder will also be on the left, maybe mounted at the point Don mentions.

I'm mulling over whether to use the Standard Vincent foopeg arrangement, which gives an upright riding position. If that arrangement is used, the clip-ons will have to go in favour of some bars that are at least as tall as Vincent flats, which sit just on top of the forks but at the back of the top yoke, or something a couple of inches higher.

One of my club friends has been following this build. He thinks the bike should have clip-ons and rear sets. I'm inclined to agree, although my body might not!

Glen

I had an old Bultaco Matador, around 1970 vintage, that had clip-on style bars that came up on each side, from each fork tube, and were positioned just like normal "dirt bike" bars. There weren't any risers on the top triple clamp, and each side handle bar clamped to it's fork tube, between the triple clamps, just like normal low clip-ons would. I should have a picture somewhere?? This might work in your situation and allow changes in rider positioning.

Glen, as we get older that upright riding style becomes more and more appealing doesn't it?, Like I said I rode a brand new RG 500 Gamma From Vancouver BC to Socal I can't imagine doing that at my age now. But if the bike is something you take out on a Sunday morning through the local mild canyon to meet the guys for Breakfast or lunch on then maybe the sport type riding position might be in order. If you plan to do any distance riding at all I would probably go with the standard peg locations and some bars that you don't have to reach over too far for. You just have to decide what the bike's Primary use and look is going to be and hope the two coincide LOL.

Me, I would go rear sets, clip-ons and a period solo seat and racing tin . FERRARI RED withe the black redline wheels with polished edge. Maybe Polish out the cases paint the jugs black with the edges of the fins polished also. Keep in mind these are my thoughts and my not coincide with yours but hey we're doing what the forums are for.... sharing ideas :)

More Pictures :P

I spent the day cutting 2" sq .250 wall tube for my bender Im making. Then on to my build as funds permit :)

Tony , I know the style of clip-ons you are referring to. Apex sells a set of adjustable clipons that look like they would do the trick.

For now, I am going with the clip-ons and rear-sets, style over practicality. If I find it really painful to ride I might change things later on. That is one nice thing with the stainless frame vs traditional Egli nickel plated or even powder coated. Things can be removed or added at any time and all that is needed for finish is to polish the welds or grind down weld and polish tube in the case of removal.

So first up is to build the right side gear change rear set assembly. Photos to follow

Here's the gearchange rear-set. I used a folding GSXR footpeg and altered the brake side middle bracket (aluminum) to work for my gear lever, or rather I made a gear lever to fit the bracket pivot. The gear lever is made to look like the original Vincent one, except it has the little lug on top for the linkage to attach to. The linkage rod& ends plus the frame bracket(the one that has a hole in centre and is tack welded) are made of SS 316, same as the frame material. It actually machines and threads very nicely.

The heel bracket is from 6061 Al. I had a black painted tin one from the GSXR stuff but it looked kinda cheap on there so I cut one out of Al. on the mill.

Glen

I'm too tired to say more than looking good as usual. My wheelchair Broke today and I don't know what im gonna do . Keyway on the axle is kinda oblonged and the axel is really galled, by the time I cleaned up the axle and put a new key in I can see there are going to be problems. the wheel used to be a machine fit to the axle and it has a key way in in also to correspond to the axle key way. Now the wheel wobbles and with the new key in you can rotate the wheel about 5-10% . the slop in the fit of the wheel and the axle combined with the bad key ways = bad . new wheel $425 new motor and gearbox ( Only way they sell them ) $1250 ....

Here's one of the pictures with a new key in . you can see how bad the key way is and the galling on the axel , specially right below the key

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anyway good luck on your bike glen, Gonna be busy searching Ebay and Craigslist for a used Quickie 626 or 646 , not sure about the 646 if the parts are interchangeable with my 626

that's a tough deal and something that obviously has to be dealt with right away. I suggested a method to do this in your new thread.

Glen

One of the Vincent club members gave me the nod today to go ahead on an Egli build when mine is done. He wants to use stainless steel like this bike, but no hotrod engine, just the standard 1000cc and traditional Egli type swingarm with dual shocks. That's OK with me, nothing like getting paid to have fun!

He has done some sketching of a custom tank he wants built for it. I need all custom tinwork for this bike as well so I've been thinking about building an English Wheel for awhile. From what I've read, it is well worth building your own. A really well built decent sized wheel is around 3K. The import ones are said to have far too much flex in the frame and poor quality anvils. The plans I have call for a 26" frame that is roughly six times as stiff as the import ones I see for around $400- $500. I think I can buy all the materials for that much, throw in the labour and build a really good ewheel.

I won't be making any direct progress on this bike for awhile.

Glen

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He has done some sketching of a custom tank he wants built for it. I need all custom tinwork for this bike as well so I've been thinking about building an English Wheel for awhile. From what I've read, it is well worth building your own. A really well built decent sized wheel is around 3K. The import ones are said to have far too much flex in the frame and poor quality anvils. The plans I have call for a 26" frame that is roughly six times as stiff as the import ones I see for around $400- $500. I think I can buy all the materials for that much, throw in the labour and build a really good ewheel.

I won't be making any direct progress on this bike for awhile.

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...but we will see progress on the ewheel, right?

yep, I'll start a thread here today on it. There is lots of welding to do and a surprising amount of machining to make an adjuster with gibs, thrust bearings and a backlash eliminator. These are all items which are missing on the $500 unit but present on the 3K unit.

Glen