Going Green: 200DV

So seeing that this sub-forum appears to be more active than 'Introduce Yourself' or 'Pre-purchase(etc)' I'll post here.

I just purchased a 200DV yesterday and await its arrival. I have used exclusively Blue and Red(and even a Yellow!) machines for a good while and have been hearing positive things about Everlast from some people who any welder would have to take seriously.

I have a fairly big project at hand requiring over 200' of welding of .125" aluminum tubing. This thing is going to be put through the ringer as soon as its kicked off the UPS truck.

I am also on a life long crusade against the 'big, dumb' tig torches, so I cannot proceed without a 20. I believe there are air-cooled torches good for 150amps, which I'm hoping will almost cover me on this project.

It'd be great if someone with .125" aluminum experience on an Everlast machine would share their knowledge on the finer points of 'at what point should you give in and buy a cooler'.

For anyone interested, here is some of my work...
https://www.instagram.com/weldymcwelderton/

Hand will get toasty with the air cooled 20 ,need thick mig style gloves(clumsy)
I have both series 9 air/gas cooled for tacking and series 20 water cooled for long welds(length/duration). Everlast 250EX

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Originally Posted by rick9345

Hand will get toasty with the air cooled 20 ,need thick mig style gloves(clumsy)
I have both series 9 air/gas cooled for tacking and series 20 water cooled for long welds(length/duration). Everlast 250EX

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20 is always a water cooled.

Thanks for the input. I was once forced to use a water cooled torch after the impeller in the cooler failed because the job had to get done(NOW!). It got so hot it melted the water line in it. These were more than adequate(highly recommended)...
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us...ncolnElectric)

Will an air-cooled torch hold up better than a 'dry' water-cooled under similar conditions?

Do you use one torch to tack and one to weld in order to lower your energy bill? I never thought about that. I can't stand the bigger torches because, not only are they bulky, but they make for some awkward and uncomfortable hand positions.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

20 is always a water cooled.

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I've actually used Lincoln Invertec 205's with air-cooled 20's.

EDIT: Maybe I am confused. Is the 9 the same size as a 20?

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Originally Posted by dumbwelder

I've actually used Lincoln Invertec 205's with air-cooled 20's.

EDIT: Maybe I am confused. Is the 9 the same size as a 20?

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Yes they share the same basic size. Just like the 18 is the water cooled version of the 17.

Ahhhhhhh. I did not know that. Thank you!

Why does it need to be so confusing?! Whatever, they're the experts

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Originally Posted by dumbwelder

Thanks for the input. I was once forced to use a water cooled torch after the impeller in the cooler failed because the job had to get done(NOW!). It got so hot it melted the water line in it. These were more than adequate(highly recommended)...
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us...ncolnElectric)

Will an air-cooled torch hold up better than a 'dry' water-cooled under similar conditions?

Do you use one torch to tack and one to weld in order to lower your energy bill? I never thought about that. I can't stand the bigger torches because, not only are they bulky, but they make for some awkward and uncomfortable hand positions.

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As you noticed, it's not so much the torch that fails as the power lead. They depend on the water to keep the small copper wire from melting down. Where as an air cooled torch or even a stick welding lead for say 250 amps would be somewhere around a #2 or #4 awg wire, If you look inside a water cooled 250 amp cable, the wire will be around a #10awg surrounded by a water jacket. While the torch head itself is cooled, the real cooling is needed in the power line. That is what makes the lines so small and flexible. So even with the bundle of three, it's a lot easier to deal with than something like a giant #2 awg copper wire hanging off your torch.

I'm sure he uses the 9 because of the light cable and torch. But that combo is only good to about 150 amps, so he switches to the 20 to get the power and duty cycle to do long welds in heavy material.

I see. I'm glad there are people who know this stuff! I think where I lose interest is, for instance, when wiring something there is 4 colors, but in some instances this particular color is one thing, but in other cases it can be different. I'm not into burning the building down by accident. Or purposefully for that matter! I'll leave that to the professionals and the insurance companies to sort out.

I remember working at a place welding forged aluminum engine blocks with a 375 amp Lincoln 'Sledge Hammer' when a salesman came in and sold us on a torch, which was a 20, good for 400 amps. Or so the story went. I believe it was a Speedway. I think it was purple. I have no idea if it would've handled that kind of heat, but for the money they charged, it better!

So what do you think? Will I be good with a 9 for .125" aluminum and no helium?

All depends on how long the weld and how long a rest between welds, plus how thick your gloves are. You will be near the upper limit of what a 9 can do.

Yes, keep an eye on duty cycle. Might want to google TIG finger too.

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Originally Posted by dumbwelder

I see. I'm glad there are people who know this stuff! I think where I lose interest is, for instance, when wiring something there is 4 colors, but in some instances this particular color is one thing, but in other cases it can be different. I'm not into burning the building down by accident. Or purposefully for that matter! I'll leave that to the professionals and the insurance companies to sort out.

I remember working at a place welding forged aluminum engine blocks with a 375 amp Lincoln 'Sledge Hammer' when a salesman came in and sold us on a torch, which was a 20, good for 400 amps. Or so the story went. I believe it was a Speedway. I think it was purple. I have no idea if it would've handled that kind of heat, but for the money they charged, it better!

So what do you think? Will I be good with a 9 for .125" aluminum and no helium?

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A 20 is typically good for 225- 250 amps or so.

A 9 is 125 amps.

You'd be better off letting us sell you a 17 with a stubby consumable kit, or a CK trimline 26 with a stubby kit.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

If you look inside a water cooled 250 amp cable, the wire will be around a #10awg surrounded by a water jacket. While the torch head itself is cooled, the real cooling is needed in the power line. That is what makes the lines so small and flexible.

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I would have thought so too,,,, BUT was Amazed to find it closer to 14ga!


Post #15 has pics of my 250A CK Water Cooled power line -> http://www.everlastgenerators.com/fo...2122#post52122

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Originally Posted by performance

A 20 is typically good for 225- 250 amps or so.

A 9 is 125 amps.

You'd be better off letting us sell you a 17 with a stubby consumable kit, or a CK trimline 26 with a stubby kit.

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Which torch comes with the 200DV? Isn't a 17 bigger than the 20/9? I can't stand those. Is there no 'aftermarket' brand out there with a higher amp 'small' torch?

I might just buy a cooler but I don't see myself needing one very often at all.

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Originally Posted by everlastsupport

Yes, keep an eye on duty cycle. Might want to google TIG finger too.

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Those are great. I've used them in the past

There is almost no size difference between a 17 with a stubby kit and a 9. Different brands have more variation in external size even though they share the same internal parts. There are size 20 torches and cables rated to 300 amps, so no real need to go to the larger sizes with Everlast machines. It all has to do with the kind of welding you do and what is a deal breaker. Some people don't mind the torch getting hot as they wear thick gloves and or hold the torch way back from the head. I often TIG with no gloves at all, so I want the torch to remain cool. To me the dividing line is around 100 amps. Air cooled works below that, water cooled above. Duty cycle also can move that number around a bit. Like production welding at 100 amps I would want water cooled, and doing light fitup or repair at 150 amps would still be ok for air cooled.

I think every machine has a best matched torch for the kind of work that is done with it. A 20 will do almost everything I want, on a bench machine and I've used the same one across at least 3 different welding machines over 20 plus years. For a semi portable machine, a 17 with a stubby kit will do the kind of short repair type work without melting down up to 150 plus amps. I keep a giant Lincoln Magnum 26 torch with my SA-200 just because it's indestructible, and can handle whatever needs to be done.

Small size, air cooled, high power. You only get to pick two.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

There is almost no size difference between a 17 with a stubby kit and a 9.

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If I remember correctly(its been a few years since using a 17) there is a noticeable difference in the size of the body itself.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

It all has to do with the kind of welding you do and what is a deal breaker.

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Torch size :)
Like I said earlier. Awkward/uncomfortable hand positions make for a miserable day.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

Some people don't mind the torch getting hot as they wear thick gloves and or hold the torch way back from the head. I often TIG with no gloves at all

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Thick gloves get in the way and get cooked, so not an option for me. I also sometimes wear no gloves.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

Small size, air cooled, high power. You only get to pick two.

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I've only ever needed 2 sizes even when welding schedule 80 pipe. 20/9 and micro/pencil. And when I've used cheap TIG's that came with a 17, I replaced them with 9's from Lincoln Electric.

Thanks for the input. I'll see if Speedway or someone else has something available.

Thanks to everyone who replied. According to UPS tracking, this thing is slated to arrive Thursday(today), and after reading through this thread again, I just want to make clear that I'm not in any way worried about my hand getting warm. I thought I made that clear. I'm worried about the torch melting down.

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Originally Posted by dumbwelder

Thanks to everyone who replied. According to UPS tracking, this thing is slated to arrive Thursday(today), and after reading through this thread again, I just want to make clear that I'm not in any way worried about my hand getting warm. I thought I made that clear. I'm worried about the torch melting down.

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That's simple.
Never run a water cooled torch without water.
Don't exceed the amp and duty cycle rating of the torch.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

That's simple.
Never run a water cooled torch without water.
Don't exceed the amp and duty cycle rating of the torch.

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Hah! I wish it were that simple. Seeing that I'm probably right on the edge of the amp and duty cycle, I'm gonna have to push my luck!

I'm goin in....
Attachment 13453

Initial impressions are pretty good aside from the usual crap quality control coming out of China regarding machined threads etc.

These inverters are quite impressive. I just laid down these long beads on this .500" thick scrap. These were used to hold Subaru cases in a cylinder hone so they've been saturated with honing oil much of their lives. I set the machine to 160 amps and held the pedal down for most of the time. Totally expected the breaker to lay down but it didn't budge. All on a 30 amp circuit!

Attachment 13454

Still not a fan of the bulky 17 torch but it was OK on a trial run.

So far so good, Everlast :)

Try a stubby kit. Then you can use the small cup.

Attachment 13456 Attachment 13455

Yea that's better. I had a bottle of argon delivered and asked if they had any, but they didn't. Gonna hit up Airgas tomorrow. Is that a regular collet body? I did a quick search and all I saw were lenses.

That one is a regular collet body. You can get either in the stubby. As I recall it's an Anchor brand. I know CK has the lens versions. You can also find them at River Weld.
http://www.riverweldstore.com/index....oducts_id=7633
Not bad quality for Chinese parts and the price is damn hard to beat. Somewhere here I have a review of a bunch of bits and bobs I got from them a while ago compared to WeldCraft parts. There is only one size body, and you also need the stubby collets and an insulator. Then you just use the regular 9/20 cups.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

Try a stubby kit. Then you can use the small cup.

Attachment 13456 Attachment 13455

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Can you do me a favor when you get a chance and post a pic of both collet bodies side by side? My local Airgas guy has never seen this and tried telling me that 'yea, we have it. Its just showing up as a standard collet body for a 17'. I don't want to go there and, well you know

EDIT: Nevermind. He finally saw the light

http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...ps417e630c.jpg

http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/a...psb0d0ddae.jpg

Impressive welds. I should be investing in a Everlast 200DV also in a couple of hours. My main use will be on 1/4" alluminun and smaller but wanted to know it's real down and dirty capabilities. How's it holding up?

Hey, Jacobelps- if you'll send DumbWelder a private message, he'll get an email telling him about the message, and he may be able to respond sooner.

Thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by Jacobelps

Impressive welds. I should be investing in a Everlast 200DV also in a couple of hours. My main use will be on 1/4" alluminun and smaller but wanted to know it's real down and dirty capabilities. How's it holding up?

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For some reason I didn't get an email notification for this, sorry. I just checked my setting and it is supposed to send one for replies.

As I said in a PM, this machine is a great choice for exactly what you describe. If you're just doing some quick weld repairs I'm not even sure if a cooler is necessary.

I do have a complaint about the way this machine ramps down on AC. I hate craters of any size and it seems like the pedal is 'low resolution', meaning, its focused on the top-end and the lowest it will go when ramping down is too high to back off to almost nothing before the arc goes out. There is not much change in the arc when you get down to a certain point. I think the low limit is maybe 20a? It seems like its actually higher than that.

I took this thing on a jobsite to do some modifications to a couple of steel gates. Half inch 16g square tubing to one inch c-channel. I was limited to a 110v circuit and the 140a MIG I brought wouldn't do it so I bought some stick rods(not well versed in stick so I don't remember what they were outside of 3/32" size) and tried it out at home. If I remember correctly, on 110v set to stick, it is limited to either 90 or 100a, and on TIG it is 125a. The results I got from stick didn't instill confidence so I brought it out there and TIG'd it. If I had much welding to do it would have taken quite a while, but it went pretty quick.
Attachment 13485
So far so good with this thing. It seems to have an issue on AC which I haven't had much time to sort out with tech support where the amperage drops to almost nothing(showing 20a on the panel) for about a second or so, then goes back to what the pedal tells it. Almost like the pulse circuit comes in for a bit.

I've welded a good bit of .125" aluminum with it on 220v using 1.5% lanthanated tungsten with a stubby gas lens setup, a little stainless, and will soon give it a go on some titanuim. Outside of the quirks mentioned above, I'm pretty happy with it.

This is 1 of 5 and I used this machine for a little while until I realized the aluminum needed too much attention in the cleaning dept to TIG the entire job, so I used a spool gun to knock it out quick. 1" pickets to 1.125" frame, all .125" thickness.
Attachment 13486

Wow,

Nice work!

Is that jig obsolete now that the 5 segments are complete, or do you just modify it for different spacings?

Otherwise, aluminum for fencing seems kind of rare, and the picket spacing seems kind of tight, i.e., labor and material intensive.

Was this for around a pool?

Besides that, maybe try the SSC pedal on your 200DV. I bought one as an upgrade for a 210EXT, and it seemed a little better, but then tried a new CK SteadyGrip amptrol that I like well, as it also keeps your hand cooler. Mine is pictured on a 17 flex head torch with a stubby gas lens. The pistol grip makes for a good prop too.

Attachment 13488

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Originally Posted by dumbwelder

This is 1 of 5 and I used this machine for a little while until I realized the aluminum needed too much attention in the cleaning dept to TIG the entire job, so I used a spool gun to knock it out quick. 1" pickets to 1.125" frame, all .125" thickness.
Attachment 13486

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Originally Posted by christian

Nice work!
Is that jig obsolete now that the 5 segments are complete, or do you just modify it for different spacings?

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Thx! I have to make 2 more panels for another phase of the project but after that, the jig is pretty much useless, yes. That's why I just heavily tacked it together for easy deconstruction.

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Originally Posted by christian

Otherwise, aluminum for fencing seems kind of rare, and the picket spacing seems kind of tight, i.e., labor and material intensive.

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1.5" spacing. I tried to explain this to the customer, but anyone with zero fabrication experience will just think 'thats ridiculous!'

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Originally Posted by christian

Was this for around a pool?

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4 stall dog kennel and there is another single stall that will come a little later. Concrete is already poured.
Attachment 13489
Attachment 13490
Attachment 13491

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Originally Posted by christian

Besides that, maybe try the SSC pedal on your 200DV. I bought one as an upgrade for a 210EXT, and it seemed a little better, but then tried a new CK SteadyGrip amptrol that I like well, as it also keeps your hand cooler. Mine is pictured on a 17 flex head torch with a stubby gas lens. The pistol grip makes for a good prop too.

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That is cool! Never seen it before. If you have the room, that looks pretty good!

I'm welding some .060" aluminum sheet and this machine seems to be having issues. It starts out fine and then outta nowhere it cuts out for a split second, then comes back. When it does this it seems like the gas flow stops because the tungsten and material is instantly contaminated. I've tried to reproduce the issue trying to narrow it down but it isn't a continuous thing.

I've acetone'd the material, brushed it, then acetone'd it again. I'm using a stubby gas lens with a #7 cup, straight argon at about 15cfh.

When I first got the machine I've got another call in to tech support, but figured I'd post a pic of the aftermath. You can see that it runs fine but as soon as 'it' happens I have to file it out and start over.



Attachment 13544

Update: I went with recommended(by Mike K) settings(balance around 30, Hz around 130) and the problem persists. I thought it might be a dead spot in the pedal, but it just did the same thing again while not moving it.

It cuts out for a split second, the comes right back and the arc is brighter and seem to be concentrated on the very tip for another split second, then spreads back out. By this time the tungsten has taken damage and the material is contaminated.

I'm hoping Mark can chime in or give me a call because this isn't fun and I have to get these parts done.

As you can see it welds fine until this happens. No warning, no indication of contamination, just boom, done

https://www.instagram.com/p/BPOUFrulqri/

Sounds like your idea of no gas flow might be whats happening. Does it happen often enough that you can check for that?

I replaced the cheap hose that came with the flow meter yesterday because it definitely was leaking slowly. When it happened a few times yesterday I tried reproducing it on a piece of scrap so I could see what the panel and flow meter are doing, but it wouldn't do it. Only when it fooled me into thinking it was fine I would go back to the real parts and it would happen randomly.

Somebody at Everlast said it sounds like the control board yesterday.

I don't know about the newer machines like yours but I've had SO Many problems with the pedal that came with my PP256 that I would want to eliminate it from the picture all together. Can you use a torch with a sw or put a temp sw on yours to test it. My pedal problems were from both the mismatched parts (belt & cog) that were in it AND the connection at the machine...

Good advice, thx. I've lost too much time trying to diagnose this thing this week. Gonna have to rent a Dynasty. I agree, the pedal feels cheap. Can't expect much out of a $1300 machine, though. I was told yesterday that a new pedal should be available some time this year.