how do you like your MTS250S and can you answer some questions

I am looking at buying one but I want to know what you think of yours and how do you use it. I have a few concerns about it. First I see that it goes up to 26 volts. I weld pretty heavy metal and am wondering if it will go into spray transfer with .035 wire. I have a millermatic 200 . It will go up to 260 amps at 35% duty cycle and it will go up to 30 volts. To go into spray transfer I have to run it at 28 - 30 volts. At 26 it is still in short arc but is on the edge. If I lowered the wire speed a little I might get into spray . Then can you get a 15 foot gun with it or what after market mig guns will fit it. The next thing would be how do you like the way it stick welds. Does it do ok with 6010 rod and 7018? I do not know if I will use all the bells and whistles that the machine has but I need the capacity and portability. I have been dragging my 200 around but it is so big that it is a hassle that I would rather do without. I sure wish it would go up to 28 volts though.

Gary, I have no knowledge about a Millermatic 200. Never used one and the amount of steel wire I've run in my life is probably less than 50# so I am useless on those two accounts. The only thing I could add is: does your machine have a voltmeter? I wouldn't trust what the pot, dial or crank says. My Porta-Flex has a pot current control and what it says and what the voltmeter says are two different things. So much so that I never even look at the numbers the knob points to. The crank on my ancient AirCo MIGet Cav II is so far off that's it's funny. Yes, It still has a spool gun hooked to it and welds as good as anything I've ever used. Which brings up the fact that there is nothing magic about IGBT technology.

I'm kinda surprised you haven't had anyone answer you. I wouldn't go for it until you get a good answer from someone knowledgeable, though.

Thanks for the reply Yofish, My MM200 has a high and low range for voltage switch with another switch that has 6 settings . they change the voltage by approx 2 volts per position. So low would be 10v,12,14v,16,18,20 then high is 20v,22v,24v,26v,28v,30v. They are surprisingly close too. In 26v setting I can do spray but it just is not as smooth and steady as it is if it is in the 28v , and 30v taps. I will wait for some replies . I am not going to be using it for several weeks as I am on to a job that I will not need it. I am surprised that a machine with a 250 amp rating only has a 26 volt max.

I do believe it goes higher. Kempy can verify I think. I don't have one in front of me to check now. I think it goes to 28 volts.

26 volts according to the Spec sheet/manual

The MTS250S in Synergic mode set to 26V will go into the low 30's when welding. The book said it is 29V plus/minus 3.0V. My machine will only show 26.0 Volts, I weld aluminum in Synergic mode 3/8 plate at 22.3V to get it to spray weld 21 to 21.7V it will spray if the metal is hot if not in starts gobbler then goes in and out of spray have to get it to 22.3V to 22.5V to start in spray weld if I go over 23.0V it will melt the tip off. In steel in Synergic Mode on 1/2 steel plate I have it set to 25.4V to get it to spray weld 26V it is to hot and some times melts the tip off. When welding my son said the volts when set to the 22.5V on aluminum welding it will go into the high 20's some times hit 30V.
I will check later and see what it will do in stick mode I have some 7018 AC or DC rod.

Kempy are you using a 90/10 or 85/15 or some other high Argon mix? The tip melting off shouldn't happen...this is where the inductance adjustment should help...and a little extra wire feed.

Mark
I use 75/25 75% argon and 25% Co2 for steel and 100% argon for aluminum some times 20% helium and 80% argon on thicker aluminum.
Attachment 11987

This in synergic mode on the MTS250S the welds are in spray mode for aluminum and steel.

Attachment 11988Attachment 11989

If you use a higher Ar content, spray would be easier and more stable and controllable and you'd need less volts and with some fine tuning to inductance, you should be able to eliminate the tip melting issue. That means the wire is burning back faster than it is being fed...so increase wire speed, or reduce voltage. Inductance will change how fast the balls burn off the tip...or rather droplet size if I recall correctly. Threshold for true spray in steel is 80/20. I use a C18, which is 82/18 Ar/CO2. Most people recommend 85/15 or 90/10. I too don't have to turn my machine wide open. I have a 250 (270 amp max) esab and spray in the mid range with .035 with wire speed about 65%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kempy

Mark
I use 75/25 75% argon and 25% Co2 for steel and 100% argon for aluminum some times 20% helium and 80% argon on thicker aluminum.
Attachment 11987

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Wowser! Something amiss by the looks of those tips for sure! When I look at the AL weld, it looks almost like too much wire for the volts. I am not a steel guy but that weld looks gorgeous. Are you welding the steel with the spool gun too? Are they both .035" wire? 4043 or 5356 filler on the AL? What flavor is the parent material in the AL?

What happens when you turn off the synergic function (if you can)? FWIW, I never weld on anything above .250" AL without pre-heat unless I was in Arizona, outside, at noon, on a sunny day!

I use .035 and .030 and some times .025 for thin to thicker steel, aluminum I use .030 and .035. .040 is just to heavy for the spool gun to push most of the time I use 4043 wire but with the Mig gun is will use 5356. If I do a lot of welding all over the place I will use the spool gun but heavy work I use the Mig gun it is a 15 foot one. Most of the aluminum I weld is .125 tubing and I use the spool gun when welding 1/4 up to 1/2 I use the spool gun also with 4043 .035 wire 95% argon 5% helium.
Most of the time when the tips melt off the gun is getting very hot I need a bigger gun or a push pull.
I do use the weld not in SYN mode but in Synergic mode it weld nicer it will adjust its self as you weld. I normal mode doing the same thickness of material it is OK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yofish

Wowser! Something amiss by the looks of those tips for sure! When I look at the AL weld, it looks almost like too much wire for the volts. I am not a steel guy but that weld looks gorgeous. Are you welding the steel with the spool gun too? Are they both .035" wire? 4043 or 5356 filler on the AL? What flavor is the parent material in the AL?

What happens when you turn off the synergic function (if you can)? FWIW, I never weld on anything above .250" AL without pre-heat unless I was in Arizona, outside, at noon, on a sunny day!

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When I use higher argon mix the gun get very hot and burns the insulator out of the cup. I ordered a 26KD torch to see if that will help the 25AK is being push over its limit need to find a 300 Amp gun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by performance

If you use a higher Ar content, spray would be easier and more stable and controllable and you'd need less volts and with some fine tuning to inductance, you should be able to eliminate the tip melting issue. That means the wire is burning back faster than it is being fed...so increase wire speed, or reduce voltage. Inductance will change how fast the balls burn off the tip...or rather droplet size if I recall correctly. Threshold for true spray in steel is 80/20. I use a C18, which is 82/18 Ar/CO2. Most people recommend 85/15 or 90/10. I too don't have to turn my machine wide open. I have a 250 (270 amp max) esab and spray in the mid range with .035 with wire speed about 65%.

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Kempy, here is 3/8" 6061 done with the little welder. 22.5V, 210 wire. 3/64" wire, 5356 (it's the only filler alloy I ever use). I quit using mixed gas years ago as it wasn't worth the extra cost for the marginal benefit. For everyday frying I use 18- 20 cuft/hr 100% argon. The piece has been pre-heated to 200 degrees or so, to hot to touch but for a tap. I can't quite wrap my head around why your gun won't run .047 if it has that capability. The 30A has no problems running 1/16" wire. One thing I can tell you that the 30A won't do spray running .047" wire with an .052" tip. It will eventually burn back and weld to the tip if you're putting the stones to it, like doing a lot of thick material. Stepping up to a .061" tip solves that to a point. I think Push-pull would not solve the problem you have, with AL, anyway. The 30A is rated 100% @ 200A but one could never achieve that without water cooling. My point is, if you haven't already, try a big tip with .047" wire in your spool gun. Also, with the older so-called second generation 30A guns, one has the ability to adjust the tip stick-out. Thus on heavy stuff I stick her back inside to get more cooling from the gas shield around the tip. Not being familiar with your gun, I don't know if this applies.

Another question I have is how many lin. feet of heavy AL do you weld before things go south?

Attachment 11990

Yofish
I tried 5356 .045 and the gun has a hard time with it I put in .035 5356 and had to put the setting up to 22.6V wire speed and amps 245 to get this weld but still black had to brush it.
Attachment 11996

When using .035 4043 it will spray at the same settings but not be black, both using 100% Argon.
Attachment 11998

When using .045 5356 same settings as yours it would work for about .25 of a inches and then slowed down then speed up making the weld not smooth.
Attachment 11997

kempy, nothing unusual about the black soot (smut) when using 5356. It's from the magnesium in the wire that has a lower boiling point than aluminum; some of it it vaporizes out. It's worse on 6061-6063. You can crank up the Ar which will help. Also a little more radical 'push' angle helps too. When I look at the weld that was done (assuming preheat) at the settings I used it looks like too much wire and not enough volts. I'd go up a volt and down 5-10 on the wire and turn off the synergic function, maybe slow down a little and open up the weld. keep cranking down the wire until the edges thin out. That spatter is also something that's gonna happen more with 5356. That you can only go 1/4" before things get funky is not right.

Spool guns have a couple of things about them that suck. I haven't had one that didn't have a 'rhythm' to it. I think it's from several things: the two biggest, I think, is the necessary small small diameter of the drive roll and the short distance the tightly wound wire off a four inch spool travels which doesn't get straightened out in a long conduit as with push-pull. My spool guns run 1/16" smoother than smaller wire. Periodically, I take the toothed drive rolls and soak them in a caustic soda solution that overnight, dissolves the embedded AL. I have one gun that has a 'twitch' that flicks .035 wire at a regular interval. Drives me nuts. So I don't run that wire in it. Though I do most of my serious welding with a suitcase and 20# 12" rolls I do buy 1# spools off FleaBay because I'm cheap. It's surprising how different brands run differently. I've had some small dia. wires come out at such a radical angle, like a claw, that I'd have to go to a smaller tip to help out. This is one of the advantages of the so-called second generation 30A guns - they make 8 different dia. contact tips.

Yofish, I will do what you suggested with the spool gun. I will try some of the 5356 .045 I have with my iMig250 with my Mig gun since it is so stiff. I have lots of 12" rolls of wire that was given to me from a welding place that went under. Two rolls of stainless 309L and 316L .035, two ERCuSi-A Silicon Bronze .035, one 4043 .035, two 5356 .045, one 5356 .035, two flux core .045 and .062, and solid wire I do not know what they are since they do not have tags on them, some day I will try them out.

Decided to try 100% argon and not mix gases like 25/75 or 15/85 or 10/90 just straight argon when weld steel with the MTS250S and it weld much better and it went into spray mode very easily using normal settings not SYN mode. Set to 23.5V , 212 wire and amps.
Attachment 12004

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kempy

Decided to try 100% argon and not mix gases like 25/75 or 15/85 or 10/90 just straight argon when weld steel with the MTS250S and it weld much better and it went into spray mode very easily using normal settings not SYN mode. Set to 23.5V , 212 wire and amps.

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Are you going to cut and etch it to check penetration ?

Full Argon results in a wider, sloppier puddle and low penetration. That's why some CO2 or O2 is needed.

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Originally Posted by zoama585

Are you going to cut and etch it to check penetration ?

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this is the test piece cut with the saw.
Attachment 12005

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kempy

this is the test piece cut with the saw.

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Thank you for sharing. What thickness is the steel and how do you rate the penetration ?
I wish we had more threads on spray transfer. Real world practical information is hard to come by on this subject.

Yes, that is shallow...not as good as it should be with a mix...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zoama585

Thank you for sharing. What thickness is the steel and how do you rate the penetration ?
I wish we had more threads on spray transfer. Real world practical information is hard to come by on this subject.

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I spray transfer routinely. What would you like to know? There are several good slow mo videos online about it and a few good sites...if I could only find them again...lol.

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Originally Posted by performance

I spray transfer routinely. What would you like to know? There are several good slow mo videos online about it and a few good sites...if I could only find them again...lol.

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I'd like to learn all I can on the subject. I like to see others discuss real world application so that I may glean without being on the spot. Many people have never heard of spray transfer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kempy

this is the test piece cut with the saw.
Attachment 12005

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I would add CO2. The depth is not the great. Marks like C18, but you need CO2 either way. We use Stargon or C25.

It was 3/4" welded to 1 1/4" steel plate with no preheat or bevel cuts. I will try some mix gas I have 25% Co2 / 75% Argon in a small bottle.

kempy, certainly not a 'sloppy' weld. As I've said, I'm not a steel guy but there is nothing inferior about a weld that has that kind of root penetration. Root penetration is root penetration. The AWS doesn't say much about it because it's not easily measurable like the leg or face of a weld.

AWS D14.3-94, paragraph 2.3.1.1, reads as follows:“Design values based on depth of penetration or effective throat, or both, which are beyond the root of the joint shall only be used when the values have been determined from a significant number of cross-sectioned samples which reflect the range of materials, material thickness, and welding conditions.”

Imagine a spec'd 1" fillet weld - it wouldn't have any more 'root penetration' because that would be accomplished on the first pass at the root!

Of course, it is a 'good thing' to have adequate root penetration but not in the sacrifice of other things.

Here is your weld that I drew over because the outline of the weld is fairly easy to see:

Attachment 12006

YOU'RE HIRED! Nothing wrong with this weld! Everyone has a way of getting to an end. Obviously, you made a nice appearing and sound weld. You learned from the experience, that's something to build on and expand. Listening to people tell you 'the best way' to do things is in the end, limiting.

Yofish,
Keep in mind, the point is to improve what is going on with trustworthy and accurate AND proven information not your subjective and a verifiable inaccurate opinion. Spreading false information and trying to portray yourself as an expert is a good way to get placed in time out. Final warning.
You also need to learn to read what was said more accurately. I didn't say the weld was sloppy. I said when you spray weld with 100% Argon, the puddle is sloppy wet compared to a proper Argon mix designed for spray welding. This makes the weld uncontrollable and by comparison a shallow penetrating weld compared to standard spray. It makes a wider, more shallow weld. As one who makes spray welds on steel routinely and one not only has received informal and formal training in the process, I know the difference and have seen the difference trying not only pure argon, 75/25, 98/2, 90/10 and my favorite C/18. Due to the type of welding I do, about 75% of the time I am using a true spray transfer process.

75/25 is NOT a true spray process. The voltage required to ionize the gas to create spray is too high and then you get issues. You can get a globular transfer, and/or a very uncontrollable spray that inconsistent and overly hot by comparison which creates a larger HAZ. People think it is spray until they use a real mix designed for it. The difference is significant.

finally some sanity. a lot of pseudo science here. not like you can't just google spray transfer and get answers from REAL experts.

going to buy me a ticket to Alaska LOL. this guy couldn't buy me a bus ticket to the airport.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-7...R1KPJ0QBSJQ7KC

i needed a cheap grinder and look who i see.

he's on boatdesign.net pumping the software. in a 2014 poll he's the only vote for it is his. lol

can't be bothered with the link

why do they gravitate here? are they on the longevity site also?

Like I said, put up or shut up.......

Test different gases. Used MTS250S in Mig mode not SYN/Mode all welds done with the steel cold using 98% Argon 2% o2 and 75% Argon 25% Co2 and 100% Argon. The eases to weld was the 2% o2 and 98% Argon all welds same settings except the Short circuit weld. The Spray Arc set to 25.5 Volts gas flow 12 LPM.
Attachment 12013Attachment 12014

The 75/25 showed the best penetration, but it is too much CO2 for proper spray. A little less and you won't see much difference in penetration but a lot smoother easier flow. The 98/2 even showed better penetration at the toes than pure argon. That's where a 90/10 or a 85/15 or even 82/18 (C18) would help out...and give better penetration with lower settings. The short arc is pitiful, but the lack of fusion is a result of making one heavy thick, gobby pass. This lesson can be carried over to aluminum as well by the way, not in the gas mix, but in the penetration and fusing at the root and at the toes...(short circuit versus spray)

Mark when I get the tank down to 2000 psig I will add 100% Argon and it will drop the Co2 down, I will calculate with my program to get the Co2 to 18% then and later to go to 15% then down to 10% Co2.

Sorry to be out of action on my own thread. I have been working 16 days straight. This is the first chance I have had to be on line. Kempy has answered the spray transfer question . Does anyone know about how well it welds 7018 rod and 6010 rod? I will be buying one either way but it would be nice to not have to have a separate machine to stick weld with.( I always have my Miller 302 with me but I use customer power most of the time and do not want to fire up the 302 if I do not have to.)

Well I was going to start a new thread but the thread starter button does not work So Im going to ask the question here. I have been on this site for about 7 or 8 months and still confused. There have been statements made about an industrial line of welder and the ones sold on this web site. So I guess I would like to know if the welders sold on this site are for industrial use or not. Are they of equivalent quality to miller dynasty welders and sutch or not. There have been comments about needing 50K to get an industrial catalog. I have been using and buying welders most of my adult life and have never heard of sutch a thing. For instance miller sells bobcat line of gas drives but also sell trailblazer line and others but they are all available to anyone. I want to compare apples to apples. Not compare a hobby welder to a welder designed for daily use in industrial use.

Gary,
You have to decide for yourself based off your use habits etc, whether something is industrial or not. Miller rates everything as commercial/industrial nearly, though many units would not be considered as such. We have a couple basic "industrial" units already on our site. We're talking about day in, day out, 12 hour shift work, near max capacity production work. They are the MTS 400, the PP 100, and the PowerTIG 315lx the PowerTIG 325EXT etc.

When we discuss industrial, we are talking about units that retail usually over 3k and up to 8 k for the basic units. We are also talking about units that are 3 phase only with heavy potted boards etc different designs etc.

Many people use our product in professional settings. It's a name that refers to it's capability and level of use. There are other names such as commercial, industrial, and now Mr. TIG is throwing around a self created name called "Utility". He and I have had a talk about it. His videos try to portray the Everlast line as a lower, utility class level for homeowners. Well, that' simply not true and he has made up the word "utility" to describe our welders, much to the dismay and disagreement of several within the ranks. But I would not say that a Everlast Power iMIG 140E is a industrial unit, though many professionals may use it in a muffler shop or some light repair facility. But Miller would call this unit somewhere between light industrial to industrial..... http://www.millerwelds.com/products/...e/basics6.html

Duty cycle, amps, and power input in my mind decide what "industrial" is. We produce our industrial line in smaller qty lots, and have orders for them before they are shipped...with the exception of the smaller, more widely demanded items. When I say 50k....that is in part a minimum order qty that we need to meet to produce the product. That's why we sell these direct to larger companies and organizations, many overseas on pipelines in the middle east, oil derricks etc all over the world. Price wise for us here in the US it is hard enough to sell excellent products like the MTS 400 because the price is rising above the average consumer who is interested in our product here in the US.

We have full synergic digital double pulse 600 amp MIG units with exhaustive parameter setups and even power bank welders that we can and do manufacture if it is right. And these units are in a whole different class. IF you want to get a sample and taste, get the MTS 400. On 240V 1 phase operation, it is limited to 250 amps, but it's 100% duty cycle too at that level.

Here's the sample out of one of our catalogs of our analog and industrial line of MIG/Multiprocess welders that I am referring to...up to 630 amps. Note that the E MTS 400 is the one we sell here simply as the MTS 400. The other smaller MIGs are different design than what we sell, and are typically more expensive than the ones we sell here...which puts them above the equivalent Miller transformer welders...which makes it a moot point to sell them here in the US but not elsewhere if requested.

Thanks for clearing that up Mark. I guess I always go by duty cycle. To me if a machine is rated at 60% duty cycle it is industrial. I know many new migs are rated at 35% like the mts250s. I have a millermatic 200 I purchased new in the 80s it is rated at 200 amps 60%. The new miller 252 is its newer equivalent as far as duty cycle and output go. So in my mind the MTS250S is a 200 amp industrial model even though it is rated at 250 amps. If my comparison is incorrect let me know. I will be using it in a light industrial capacity but I do not want to have to replace it every couple years. In my mind if a machine is kept below its duty cycle it should last for many years. Like my MM200, I have no intention of replacing it since it does such a good job . My expectation of the MTS250S is going to be compared against my MM200 since their duty cycles and output are very close to each other.

The 250S also only has an 8" roll capacity currently

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Originally Posted by performance

The 250S also only has an 8" roll capacity currently

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I can live with the 8 in roll since I want it to be portable. I really do not need all the bells and whistles the 250s has. Actually a machine like the Imig 205 would do me fine but I need the 250 amps of the 250s.