On the sales page under the Powertig 185 it suggests possible availability of a FINGER AMP CONTROL 17 SERIES TORCH. 15 FT. Is this in stock, and what is the list price for it? Thanks so much.
CW
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On the sales page under the Powertig 185 it suggests possible availability of a FINGER AMP CONTROL 17 SERIES TORCH. 15 FT. Is this in stock, and what is the list price for it? Thanks so much.
CW
Any news on the fingertip amp control?
Glen
The fingertip controls require 4T operation. Arc maintains after initial trigger. The PT185 does not have a 4T mode.
The fingertip control works just like the pedal it's just controlled by your finger. The pedal works just fine, so I can't see a reason why the fingertip control would not.
Thanks
Glenn
The Everlast fingertip control has one button for the switch and a separate dial for power. While in theory you could use it in the 2T mode, it would be difficult and might require two hands to pull it off. It was designed to be used in 4T where you tap the switch to start the arc, then move your finger to the dial to control power. 2T mode requires you hold the button down then use another finger to work the dial. Look at some of the pictures of the torch posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depdog
However, there are other types of finger controls that would work fine, where there is only one combination switch and power control.
I have not seen the torch in question, must be like the one that came with Hobart a few years ago. I was thinking along the lines of the CK one. No on off switch, just a potentiometer (sp) like the foot pedal.
Found a thread where CK said they were making the controls for the Everlast stuff. Looks like Everlast and Longevity use the same pot. and 7 pin connector, as the part numbers that were given come up with Longevity stuff when you google them.
Will call CK tomorrow and see what I can confirm.
Thanks
Glenn
Let me confirm it for you...We sell CK, and I've been working with CK on this very issue. You will get limited amp control on this unit because the pots don't match the specs of the foot pedal. I'd expect you'd top out at 150 amps...possibly less. Each unit is a little different. CK is very hesitant about selling these to customers because of this issue. I'm working on that issue as soon as the website goes live.
The new foot pedal has a 47k pot correct?
So is CK sourcing a new pot to correct the issue?
Thanks
Glenn
No they aren't.
I have a CK rotary amp control and the 10k pot gives me full amp control except for 5 amps on my powertig. I just made a post about it I'm not gonna regurgitate myself but you can read it if you want. I don't know why it works but it does. I spoke the the tech at CK last week and he said they are considering making a 50k pot for everlast and longevity. He didn't guarantee but he said they have had so much inquiry's that they have considered it. As good as the 10k one works for me I wouldn't pay to buy a replacement pot for my switch. I don't know how it works on other models though.
I believe the 210EXT is 1K and I thought I heard the newer machine would work with other values as well as the 47K (at least EXT line).. Mark can correct me if I am wrong.
Which, the Everlast is not 47k or CK is not sourcing a 47k pot?Quote:
Originally Posted by performance
Thanks
Glenn
I have tried the CK amp controller on the 250EX and it will only go to 230A but the same one on the 255EXT it will do the complete range AC or DC with the 10K. The Everlast Amptrol has a 47K and will do the complete range on the 250EX and on the 255EXT.
The Everlast Amptrol as Rambozo said it is designed for 4T not T2. The CK is for 2T it works like a foot pedal on the torch head it has a switch that turns the machine amps on and then goes to the pot at the same time like the foot pedal should. I think the 255EXT and the 210EXT will work with different K pots 10K or 47K (potentiometer) I also think the electronics in the EXT's will excepted most Pot's.
I have a CK 25K off my old Hobart I will try it to see if it works on my 250EX and 255EXT.
Attachment 11689
Everlast Amptrol unit out of the handle
CK is not. They said it was too expensive as it might cost up to 40k to invest in new pots after all is said and done. There are none currently that will fit their units that they know of. It will have to be built, and then a minimum order of several 10's of thousands possibly...then they have to stock, add part numbers etc.
I have not taken apart my foot controller to check yet, but from the operation of it, when you first move the pedal a fraction there is a click, which I think it to "turn on the welding power and the gas solenoid) at this point your at minimum amps. Then as you move the pedal, you can feel the resistance pick up and this is where you get the variable amperage from the pot.
Or is it just a pot. in there that is handling the on/off as well?
Glenn
There is a switch and a pot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depdog
I called and spoke with CK's tech support today. I was told that the current finger remotes will work with the Everlast EXT line, but they could not guarantee it to work with anything else in the Everlast line. I was also told they were "working" on a solution and have been for a couple of months, no time frame on when it would be done.
The 185 uses a 47k pot, so looks like it might be a make it yourself solution. I would like one that is shaped like a trigger on a pistol with a guard. Bet that would be easy to manipulate. Lots of ideas, but how to put them into actual use is the issue. Need some type of switch that will "turn on" the unit and gas valve at first movement and then leave it on for the full rotation of the pot, then as the pot is turned back to the minimum the switch is "turned off".
Might be stating the obvious, but it makes it easier for me to remember. LOL
Glenn
Having to hold something spring loaded with your finger would get old fast. Also a lot has to do with how you hold the torch. While it might work ok for walking the cup, it probably wouldn't for freehand. Holding it like a MIG gun is usually not the way to go. TIG is a much more precise process, and you need to be very precise with torch manipulation. Depending on the work, you should be able to hold the tip of the tungsten to a 3D location with a precision of ±.030" or better. It's one reason that the foot pedal is so common, it lets you make current adjustments without putting any unwanted motion into the torch. There are a lot of different brand finger controllers, so you can probably find one that will work or can be modified easily by changing the pot. Of course you can also build your own if you want something that isn't available. I wanted something small, so I had to build my own, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depdog
http://www.everlastgenerators.com/fo...7490#post37490
The pressure required is very light, no more than holding the torch itself if I remember right. It's a micro switch. The switch is in a natural resting position for at least a couple of different possible hand holding techniques.
Keep in mind the stock 185 comes with a finger switch only, and no foot pedal, so plenty of people use it that way as it is.
No, I was talking about Depdog's idea of making a gun trigger type of variable finger control. Not the standard torch switch, or the Everlast finger control. As long as you just pull to a stop it's no big deal, but if you had to hold something spring loaded in a mid position for a long time, it would not be that comfortable. One of the main reasons that virtually all the variable finger controls are not spring loaded. The only one I know with a spring, is one that used a plunger for the variable, I think it was Airco, but I can't remember. I know Miller has had many different models, and CK also has a few with different ergonomics.
When I say gun trigger, I just mean in how it actuates. No spring or tension to pull against. Matter of fact, a ring that your finger goes into and can pull and push would be more desirable. That way you can increase or decrease amps. Your switch build is awesome, wish I had access to some of those tools. Would make what I want to do very doable. With the 185 though, you need a switch inside the housing just in front of the slider that will actuate the unit and gas solenoid right before the amps start and then keep them actuated until you slide it back down to the "off" position.
CK's says that Everlast keeps changing their POT's so they are having a hard time committing money to something that may be changed in a few months. From my readings there have been 3 or 4 different ohm pots so far in their Tig welders.
Want to build another finger control?
Glenn
No, we've had the same two pots for the last 5 years. The units that don't have panel control of the amps are 22k. The ones that have panel control of the amps are 47k. We have recently made the PT 185 panel control with the 47 k. The very oldest 200DX's and PowerPro 205's used the amp knob on the pedal to control the amps and were 22k. If anything most of our units are using the 47k now. The only pot difference we had was with the 210ext. It is a 1k pot. That's what it's been since the day it was introduced...but when the newest 210exts come in later in the year, it will be 47k as well. That will leave 2 units with the 22k pot, and it'll probably stay that way. Now longevity is another story.
Yeah, the ring sounds like a possibility. Getting the right size might be tough depending on gloves, etc. Don't tell the safety nazis, but I often TIG weld without gloves. There are plenty of rotary pots with built in switches, and you can add a switch for other types. The big deal is getting it all compact. You can often use bondo to make something like this instead of machining it from plastic. The problem with a standard rotary pot is the travel is around 270°. So you will have to do some kind of gearing to your trigger. It might be easier to go with a linear pot and a microswitch. Get some parts and play around with your design. When you think you have something, let me know and maybe I can help you with making something. The best option these days is to just 3D print your design out of plastic. Building a 3D printer is somewhere on my never ending list of things to do.
I would love to have a 3d printer. By the time I get around to that they will be even better and more affordable.
Pulled off the cover and just checked out the guts of the foot pedal. By the numbers on the back of the pot, it's a 50k ohm one. Here are some pics
Attachment 11690Attachment 11691
If you can't read the back of the pot, here is what it says
RV24YN20S
B503 (this is the code that means 50k ohms)
www.hungyun.com
Glenn
47-50 ohms makes no difference on our units. 22-25 k make no difference either. It's within the tolerance limits.
All this pot talk makes me want to cook or smoke!
So if I'm reading you correctly, the new 185 can use a 25k ohm pot and it should work correctly?
CK makes a fingertip control for Hobart that is 25k ohms.
Thanks
Glenn
Put the Everlast 7 pin plug connector onto my old Hobart CK linear amp controller that had a old military 10 pin connector and a 25K pot, put it on my 255EXT it works but it is at full power just over 1/2 way. The 10K linear amp from CK give me full power just over 3/4 travel mark. The Everlast Amptrol with a 47K pot gives me the complete range of the pot as it hits the end it was at full power 250A.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depdog
The 250EX with the 25K controller it gave me full range but 8 to 245A and with the 47K Amptrol full range 6 to 250A now with with the 10K CK it gave me 6 to 230A.
That's it no more potentiometer to test.
I could test them all on the MTS250S some day.
Thanks for the report. The Everlast Amptrol, it gas a power switch, then a separate roller to adjust the amps?
Glenn
You use the T4 setting on the machine if you look at post #13 I put a picture of the controller you push the triangle shape button that turns the power on and off to the torch then you rotate the wheel to get the setting you need, then turn it down or just push the button again and it is off. But remember that if you turn it back on it will go to the wheels setting that you left it at. I usually roll it back to the lowest setting. Now you can set the machine to a maximum amps you want and it will not go past that it will only run in that range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Depdog
Quote:
Originally Posted by performance
Re: What pot is being used in 140st:Quote:
Originally Posted by performance
Please confirm what VALUE, amp /watt rating and "KIND" of pot it is is being used in the EverLast PowerArc 140st, production date 2014-01-22.
Pot in unit is labeled:
www.hungyun.com
Hung Yun
RV28
B103 (indicating it is 10k pot)
Website for manufacturer of pot gives NO specs, just shows a pic.
http://www.hungyun.com/en_products.asp?cat=28
PS: RV28(p) showing on mfg is under the "insulated shaft potentiometers" section. Is that going to be a issue?
Example on Ebay currently on order... Is the below correctly spec'd, correct "type"?
10K OHM Logarithmic Taper Potentiometer Pot A10K 10KA Pot 17mm Shaft
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321076524444
Manufacturer Part No: A10K 17mm
With Dust Seal
Specifications
Adjustment Type: Top Adjustment
Power: 1/2W
Resistance: 10K OHM OHMS
Type: Logarithmic Type A
Features
Knurled Shaft
Suits Most Standard knobs
Shaft Diameter: 6mm
Shaft Length: 10mm
Mounting Hole: 7.5mm
Base Diameter: 16mm
Attachment 12007
.
The 140ST pot has nothing to do with a foot pedal. The 140ST does not support the pedal or amptrol. What are you trying to do and why do you need it (because this post is sort of weird and from out in left field and has nothing to do with remote control on our units)?
You want a linear taper, not a log taper. The wattage is very low as this is just a control signal. Your best bet would be to measure the existing one. Chinese labeling is not always trustworthy. Mine was 22k but it is an older model. Not to be too harsh, but based on your questions, are you sure you know what you are doing? If you are looking for a replacement, the shaft is not the typical 1/4", "D", or splined. It is a smooth 4mm shaft with a clamping knob. Again, YMMV as all this is subject to change, based on production run.
Sorry for taking the thread off-topic, Saw the above two posts and thought you could answer a simple question.Quote:
Originally Posted by performance
As you know the 140st can be modified to add "foot", or "finger" amp control, you posted in the thread on the finger amp control for the 140st. http://forums.everlastgenerators.com...3542-First-Arc
I am just trying to get a confirmation of the values and more importantly what "type" pot is used before proceeding instead of relying upon hearsay.
(Rambozo in the above referenced thread I believed used 20 -22k pot. I would prefer to use the EXACT same spec'd pot, hence why I asked.)
PS: I know you are concerned about entry level 140st's with such a mod eating into sales of higher priced units. Most customers, aren't going to mod a unit, the few that do will:
A: Become LIFELONG customers "talking up" your products, and B: They end up purchasing higher priced units. Units with A/C.. HF, etc.
(Just today I was thinking about welding aluminum. Before purchasing a higher priced unit I need to complete a couple of jobs with the 140st.)
So do I become a LifeLong customer, the kind which "talks' up EverLast at ever opportunity telling everyone how easy EverLast is to deal with?
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambozo
Rambozo,
I was inspired by your mod, and from one done using a foot pedal for a guitar (LOL) shown here:
http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php...dification-DIY
The above poster said he used a 10K OHM Logarithmic Taper Potentiometer Pot A10K.... Based upon that, that's what I ordered :-(
So your saying I need a "Audio" taper pot?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alpha-10k-oh...item19e2a8019a
Bought a Erine Ball pedal today. Reason for buying a Ernie Ball Pedal, modding it into a TIG pedal?
I am concerned about the unit not being "sealed" like a real TIG pedal but can't find ANY real info (hard specs, nor pics from the company selling such /shots of the INTERNALS) on the foot pedals Everlast is selling. If their "IMPORT" pedal is a EXACT copy of a SSC pedal or something built to a comparable build standard I'd be interested in such.
Figured rolling my own would be the best route for now.
In so as to not take this thread off topic as any questions are going to pertain to the 140st and not the 185 or any models which came with foot control I'll post questions in your thread.
Used to TIG jet engine internal engine parts... years ago.... One thing I do know is I need a foot and or finger amp control.
Q: What is the PRODUCTION date of your unit? Does it have the "new" style main board? Poster in above thread posted a pic of the pot in his unit and it appeared to be 10k, you say yours was 22k.
.
The units are completely different internally not even close to the same as the old thread unit.
That's some good info as I never saw pics of the internals of Rambozo's 140st, but can you EXPAND on that some, and ANSWER the question about the SPEC's of the POTENTIOMETER used on a 2013-01 140st? (AKA: NEW / CURRENT STYLE)Quote:
Originally Posted by performance
It's a very SIMPLE question.
To clarify, and feel free to add details:
140st was released in the US market 2011-06 +/-
140st Rambozo has in which he added a way to control amps while welding via a finger type control is a "Original" or "Early" version of the 140st. Boards are horizontal within the unit. Multiple boards are used. Units have a metal switch on faceplate. The potentiometer is of the LINEAR TYPE, @ 22k...???? Amps.
This is what is referred to as the "OLD STYLE".
Around ???- 2012 140st was re-engineered / and or new supplier was sourced. Design is totally different. Main board is now vertical. Number of boards reduced. Switch on faceplate now a plastic rocker switch. This is what is referred to as the "new style" and the design is largely frozen and is unlikely to change. Potentiometer with a STEEL shaft is labeled " N3, WH5-1A, A10K on the new design for a unit with a production date of 2013-01 +/- as shown in nbuller's thread which shows a foot pedal being added.
http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php...dification-DIY
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2YV2wkb33M
So that is the history as I know it.
140st's I have with a production dates of 11-2013 and 2014-01 respectfully are using a pot with a Plastic shaft.
Pot is labeled:
www.hungyun.com
Hung Yun
RV28
B103 (indicating it is 10k pot)
Website for manufacturer of pot gives NO specs, just shows a pic.
http://www.hungyun.com/en_products.asp?cat=28
I can only assume on units of 2013-11 and 2014-01 and on nbuller's 140st which has a estimated production date of 2013-01 which has the pot labeled N3, WH5-1A, A10K
1: Pots are of the SAME spec across the "New Style" 140st's and are interchangeable.
2: Pot is of the *LINEAR TYPE, vs LOG / Logarithmic (Audio) taper type.
(As per Rambozo with old style 140st he is saying LINEAR, nbuller stated he used a A10K OHM Logarithmic Pot - audio taper pot... HENCE THE CONFUSION ON THE SPECS OF THE POT.)
Do 2014-01 140st's use a LINEAR or LOGARITHMIC type pot? What power rating is is rated for?
Please CONFIRM what the specs are for the pot of a 140st with a production date of 2013-01.
.
This is rather basic electronics design, but it would help you a lot to know the difference between a linear taper pot and a log taper. The only difference is the rate of resistance change. Log pots are used for volume controls because they mimic the human ear's response to sound. It typically take about ten times as much power to sound twice as loud. Which one you use is a matter of personal preference. If you design your pedal to use the pot's full range of travel, a linear pot would give you half power at half travel. A log pot would either give you more control over the upper or lower amp range, depending on what direction you installed it. Looking at the video of the other pedal mod, you can sorta see that half power doesn't quite line up with half travel. The sign of a log pot.
You might actually prefer a log pot if you want the most control at very low amps. Many cars use log pots for throttle control for the same reason, and even in the days before drive-by-wire, many cable and linkage designs were logarithmic in there design. Especially on high power cars.
So getting back to your pedal, just buy both types and try each, to see what you like. Use a meter to measure the stock pot to be sure you match the total resistance, and you won't hurt anything by using either type. You can also play with the pots and a meter to get a better feel for how the response is different between the two. My only concern is that if you are very new to electronics (which it sounds like you are) you may not be aware of other factors and issues that you might run across and fry your welder from a simple mistake. Maybe build some simple circuits that use pots to learn a little more about them first? Just a suggestion. Everyone has to start somewhere.
If you really want to be confused look up the coding between A and B pots. Some countries swap them, and they changed more than once over the years. It's best to measure them to be sure.
Here is a brief primer on pots. http://sound.westhost.com/pots.htm
Note: Also be sure to always measure pots out of circuit (not connected to anything else). Otherwise you can get false readings and can even damage some circuits. (Bonus question: see if you can figure out why?)
Wearenotalon,
Wow, what hard to read, convolution of information and writing. I don't mean to be harsh, and I know you mean well...but we can't approve of any of these modifications, for legal, insurance, fire and safety reasons...and because the warranty is voided the second you touch this stuff. It gives us a bad name as people come (and yes they have) whining/crying back to us that they did something to the welder and blew something else....One such thread was resurrected over on WW as some other "wise guy" wanted to know if we had helped the person out after we told him it was not warrantied...He killed a resistor and couldn't read the color bands....
With that said, the schematic says it is a 103 (if I can read the international circuit symbols correctly). But warning: it is now directly in parallel with other fixed resistors and these are in series with fixed and adjustable resistors. That is as much info as I am going to give out.
That pot is in a new board. These latest units were officially released in late 2013 and are not the same as any other models...but from now on out the design has been fixed. No changes for the forseeable future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by performance
I understand certification, liability, etc issues. The unit is "certified" as shipped. So far as your comments on such giving Everlast a bad name, Before buying the 140st's I read a BUNCH of negative things about EverLast and NONE were about the EverLast name being tarnished due to someone "modding" a 140st. None, zero, zip, nada.Quote:
With that said, the schematic says it is a 103 (if I can read the international circuit symbols correctly). But warning: it is now directly in parallel with other fixed resistors and these are in series with fixed and adjustable resistors. That is as much info as I am going to give out.
In regards to the "evil" mod.
The "mod" referenced switches the connection between the existing factory pot, and a EXACTLY spec'd and wired pot within a foot pedal. Only ONE of the POTs is ACTIVE at any one time and really the ONLY issue is the length of wire being added to the circuit.
It's the SAME thing Rambozo did with his "finger amp control" mod he posted about, abet using a foot pedal instead. The only difference I see is Rambozo used a audio jack that automatically toggles between the onboard (existing pot) and the external one. I'm finding it hard to understand the "negative" vibe from you when you and your fellow co-worker Mike R thought his mod was "cool". I guess you missed the part about the mod tying into a 140st.
It sounds like you don't know the specs of the pot (which is understandable with you being in sales.)Quote:
Originally Posted by performance
Rambozo'a 140st used a 22k pot. You say that was the old style board.Quote:
That pot is in a new board. These latest units were officially released in late 2013 and are not the same as any other models...but from now on out the design has been fixed. No changes for the forseeable future.
nbuller's 140st from 2013-01 uses a 10k pot labeled N3, WH5-1A, A10K
The 140st's I have with a mfg date of 2013-11 and 2014-01 appear to be using a 10k, abet from a different supplier.
Are you saying the N3, WH5-1A, A10K will not interchange with the units I have? I find it hard to believe with both pots rated at 10k ohms the pots aren't interchangeable?
Sounds like a stocking and servicing nightmare if the above is true and it is unlikely EverLast will be able to repair a unit a few years down the road.
.
.
This day and age, it is totally understandable. Mike & Mark work for Everlast, it would be irresponsible and in violation of more than one rule for them to advise you on making modifications to your equipment. It's a legal and safety thing, much more than it has anything to do with sales. Other owners do not have to follow those same rules. The other thing is also more of a "if you have to ask, you might not know enough to do this safely". Working with high energy electronics can be lethal. This is not the best kind of project to learn on, for that reason. Battery powered circuits are a lot more forgiving of mistakes. You might smoke a part or two, but other than a burned finger or two, it's not that dangerous. Something like a welder is not so forgiving. It has the one two punch of high voltage on the input and super high current on the output. It could kill you with no trouble at all. So while I'm all for people modding things and learning new skills, you need to learn basic safety before you dive in. It's not just wiring something up wrong, either. Because of the voltage and current involved, just routing one wire too close to another or crossing it at 90° can be a problem. High current will generate voltage in wires passing close by. This is how some of the parts in the welder operate. And obviously the machine is very capable of producing enough current to jump a gap, it's an arc welder after all, so how things are routed is very important.
The other big difference is that I didn't have to ask what would work, and made it very clear that I was voiding my warranty with this, and only discussed it after I had tested everything.
Also Mark didn't say that wouldn't interchange, he just didn't say it would. He really can't say anymore, but he did tell you that the schematic shows it as a 103 pot so he did more than he needed to. He also mentioned that it is part of a series parallel circuit with other resistors so it probably forms a ladder divider circuit. You can take it from there.