Just upgraded to a 250 CFT argon tank.

I recently have been welding up a storm and I have been using argon at rates I have not seen before. So it was time to get an upgrade from a 150 tank to a K 250 argon tank.

Best investment I've made in quite a while. I make things that I sell over the internet and I got tired of driving to the LWS to get gas every other week.
I have been looking to do this for a while but I finally bit the bullet and traded in the 150 for a 250 tank plus $80.

I have so far in the last month saved quite a bit in gasoline and getting the 250 filled is cheaper per quantity to fill than the 150. It was costing me $45 to fill the 150 tank and the 250 tank is costing me $65 for almost double the gas. My nearest LWS is almost 50 miles away so I had to do this. I also got a good deal on the 250 tank as they are not as common as the 150's or the 320's. The 320 tank is huge and was just a bit too big for me. Plus I saved quite a bit as the LWS wanted to move the 250 tanks.

Now I must say that the 250 tank weighs in at a little over 200 lbs. and is a bear to lift. I can do it but it takes some muscle. Plus I had to modify my cart to carry the larger tank. But it sure was worth the effort.

If you are thinking of getting a larger argon or CO2 tank, just do it. It is one of the better things that you can do to make welding a bit less expensive and put more money in your pocket.

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Originally Posted by Steve

If you are thinking of getting a larger argon or CO2 tank, just do it. It is one of the better things that you can do to make welding a bit less expensive and put more money in your pocket.

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Well, you are right, but to get any bigger, I would have to go on lease. A lease would cost me nearly as much in a year as buying the tank outright did, except at the end, I wouldn't be able to resell the cylinder and get my money back out of it. So... not the cheaper option after all, unless I was going through enough gas to save approximately $200 a year, which I'm not.

For perspective, the 250 is 1.66 times as big as the 150, and it costs you 1.44 times as much to fill. You are saving about $15 per fill up by going with the larger cylinder. For me, a lease of a 125 cf. cylinder is about $200 a year, so I would need to fill up 13 times every single year that I owned the cylinder to break even relative to owning my cylinder. And the number is actually higher than that, but I don't remember what the lease on the larger bottles costs. Of course the equation changes if you add in fuel and time to the supplier, and downtime for a professional costs money too. But it's hardly a slam dunk that a larger tank is cheaper, if you have to go on lease to get it. Which, of course, is what they want.

Going to a bigger tank is almost always a good deal unless you run into lease costs like joshuab or are continually forgetful like me and run the risk of leaving the tank valve open and leak all of your gas from time to time ....

If your LWS only leases the big tanks, it might be time to shop for a new supplier. At the lease rate here, my 300 would be paid for in about 3-1/2 years, not being a pro, there isn't really any justification for leasing.

Only down side for a huge cylinder is that experimenting with different mixes can be a bummer. It will be a long time before I burn off all that 75/25 and can try something a little richer.

Absolutely nobody in the Knoxville area sells larger than 80 cf except Praxair, who sells up to 125. At least not that I could find. Everything else is lease only, and if you do manage to buy larger somehow, they won't exchange it, only fill and return, which requires you to make two trips a week apart, since they don't fill on site.

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Originally Posted by joshuab

Absolutely nobody in the Knoxville area sells larger than 80 cf except Praxair, who sells up to 125. At least not that I could find. Everything else is lease only, and if you do manage to buy larger somehow, they won't exchange it, only fill and return, which requires you to make two trips a week apart, since they don't fill on site.

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Yeah, that seems to be a state or regional thing. There is a long thread here on gas bottle sizes, availability, and prices. Some places it's hard to get large bottles, or can take signing up as a business with a major gas supplier. The price for gas in Hawaii was heart stopping.

Did you check with BOC gas and Airgas? They both show locations in Knoxville.

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Originally Posted by Steve

I recently have been welding up a storm and I have been using argon at rates I have not seen before. So it was time to get an upgrade from a 150 tank to a K 250 argon tank.

Best investment I've made in quite a while. I make things that I sell over the internet and I got tired of driving to the LWS to get gas every other week.
I have been looking to do this for a while but I finally bit the bullet and traded in the 150 for a 250 tank plus $80.

I have so far in the last month saved quite a bit in gasoline and getting the 250 filled is cheaper per quantity to fill than the 150. It was costing me $45 to fill the 150 tank and the 250 tank is costing me $65 for almost double the gas. My nearest LWS is almost 50 miles away so I had to do this. I also got a good deal on the 250 tank as they are not as common as the 150's or the 320's. The 320 tank is huge and was just a bit too big for me. Plus I saved quite a bit as the LWS wanted to move the 250 tanks.

Now I must say that the 250 tank weighs in at a little over 200 lbs. and is a bear to lift. I can do it but it takes some muscle. Plus I had to modify my cart to carry the larger tank. But it sure was worth the effort.

If you are thinking of getting a larger argon or CO2 tank, just do it. It is one of the better things that you can do to make welding a bit less expensive and put more money in your pocket.

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Yep...bigger is better,,,,my tank weigh in at that 200 pound weight,,,it's a bear for an old fart my age,,,found that I had to slide it in the cart on it's side then lift it upright,,,then put the 250 EX and water cooler on the cart after...witha big tank you don't have to do that very often..

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Originally Posted by geezer

Yep...bigger is better,,,,my tank weigh in at that 200 pound weight,,,it's a bear for an old fart my age,,,found that I had to slide it in the cart on it's side then lift it upright,,,then put the 250 EX and water cooler on the cart after...witha big tank you don't have to do that very often..

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Done it alone, but normally get an extra hand. But it is true, I don't do it often. So worth it for me. And the price. A 150 is $40-50, 330 (called a 390) is like $28. So it is not 1.44 on the price here for owner tanks.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

Did you check with BOC gas and Airgas? They both show locations in Knoxville.

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BOC, no. I don't think that listing is right. Airgas, yes. Airgas wanted as much for an 80 as Praxair wanted for a 125.

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Originally Posted by joshuab

BOC, no. I don't think that listing is right. Airgas, yes. Airgas wanted as much for an 80 as Praxair wanted for a 125.

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That's interesting, the Airgas here was more than willing to sell a 300, they were also the least expensive, although the regional store was happy to price match.

I bought mine outright. Total cost was an extra $85 over the $100 I originally paid for the 150 tank. I got the 150 tank off Craigslist.

You can buy 250 tanks if you look around. My LWS was more than happy to sell me a 250 tank. It cost me an extra $20 per refill over the 150 CFT tank. My gasoline savings from driving back and forth to the LWS have more than paid for the one time charge of $85 as I was buying argon two or three times a month.

I know that in some parts of the country, the LWS's sometimes will try to rip you off. I've heard stories like yours before from others. I guess I'm just lucky to have so many options. Here in northern Ohio, we have quite a few outlets for welding gas.

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Originally Posted by joshuab

Absolutely nobody in the Knoxville area sells larger than 80 cf except Praxair, who sells up to 125. At least not that I could find. Everything else is lease only, and if you do manage to buy larger somehow, they won't exchange it, only fill and return, which requires you to make two trips a week apart, since they don't fill on site.

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I have heard that some folks will travel to get their larger tanks to own outright. Lots of folks are selling tanks on Craigslist. The LWS will then exchange tanks with no questions asked when time for a refill. Here is a link to a friends video that explains welding tanks and how to buy them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndGB-Ww47M4

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Originally Posted by Steve

I have heard that some folks will travel to get their larger tanks to own outright. Lots of folks are selling tanks on Craigslist. The LWS will then exchange tanks with no questions asked when time for a refill. Here is a link to a friends video that explains welding tanks and how to buy them.

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I considered this, but the problem is that if the LWS doesn't sell Customer-Owned tanks in the size that you have, then they can't exchange them, because they only have tanks with their neck ring. They'll only fill-and-return the same cylinder back to you. But if the company doesn't fill on site, and many/most do not these days, then you have to drop the cylinder off, then come back when it's been sent out and filled. This may take 1-3 weeks, depending on their turnover and stocking rate. And the whole time, they kind of hate you for all the extra work they're having to do tracking your cylinder through the system, so there may be an extra surcharge, or you may just get an employee who doesn't know any better and who refuses to do it. It's just not worth it, IMO.

There were times when I was shopping when I could have gotten a cylinder bigger than 125 cf, but since none of the local suppliers would exchange it, I passed. There's no point in having a cylinder that you have to make TWO trips to the LWS to get filled, AND you have to wait a week or more to get it back.

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Originally Posted by redbeard

That's interesting, the Airgas here was more than willing to sell a 300, they were also the least expensive, although the regional store was happy to price match.

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My impression is that there is significant regional variation between suppliers, even within the same brand. In other words, Airgas in Tennessee may have a totally different policy than Airgas in Oregon. I have told my story, and had people say that it was the exact opposite where they were: Praxair was expensive and a hassle, and Airgas was cheap and as cool as a cucumber. It just all depends... You gotta shop around and see what's going to work for you.

I wouldn't go with Airgas for anything after buying my cylinder from them (along with some consumables) and getting WAY overcharged! It was my understanding that they charge the same amount regardless of the store location (that's what the guys at the counter told me anyways). I started dealing with Mathison and they are quite a bit cheaper on bottle exchanges, plus they have a little more stock on hand that Airgas didn't have. Weldingcity.com and one other welding supply website (can't remember which one right now!) are my new favorite places to buy consumables due to their cost advantage and fast shipping. As Geezer said, I hate having to move the damn cylinders that are huge, not because I'm old but because I'm a scrawny weakling. At least I still have my beauty and brains...most of them anyways.

If memory serves me correctly, Airgas charged me $305 for the full cylinder (150CF owned) and wanted $114 total to exchange my 150 when it went dry. Mathison is charging $64 for an exchange and the total with fees is $71.00. They wanted $75 or $85 plus my cylinder if I was to upgrade to a 250CF cylinder. I won't even consider getting anything bigger than that as it's a pain to move and transport! One other large chain welding supply place wanted $57 to exchange my tank, but they were out of my way. Maybe I'll try them next time. It pays to shop around, and mentioning that your a student at the local JC sometimes works for a small discount.

Airgas here is way cheaper than praxair.. praxair wont even sell a tank larger then 150cf.. Airgas sold me a 300 for the price praxair told me their 150 would cost :O I guess the stores decided what they charge individually?

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Originally Posted by Jason

Airgas here is way cheaper than praxair.. praxair wont even sell a tank larger then 150cf.. Airgas sold me a 300 for the price praxair told me their 150 would cost :O I guess the stores decided what they charge individually?

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I don't know what to believe when it comes to these welding shops. It seems like every time I go into one (regardless of which one), they sugarcoat everything and make it seem like I'm getting some smokin' deal. Then I return months later and they've changed policies and pricing. To make matters worse, prices are different depending on which salesman is at the counter! One person cuts you a deal and another cuts a fat hog for himself. Now I remember why I call this the "Whine Country." Everyone thinks that living here gives them a license to steal.

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Originally Posted by youngnstudly

I don't know what to believe when it comes to these welding shops. It seems like every time I go into one (regardless of which one), they sugarcoat everything and make it seem like I'm getting some smokin' deal. Then I return months later and they've changed policies and pricing. To make matters worse, prices are different depending on which salesman is at the counter! One person cuts you a deal and another cuts a fat hog for himself. Now I remember why I call this the "Whine Country." Everyone thinks that living here gives them a license to steal.

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I don't really miss that part of the country at all :P I still have family out there but I moved out of state at 18 and have not moved back.

I bought a MM 252 in the spring and my LWS gave me a killer deal on larger tanks, 300 cu ft for their price of their 250's, so I could not resist. COP=Customer Owned Property. They are a pain to lift but I bought a gantry crane for other needs and will use it for the tanks. They asked if I wanted to fill out a simple form like a company which was just my name and address so I could get better fill rates that they guarantee for months (but not on Helium gas).

It will be a while before I have to fill these bad boys up. My LWS is only open during the week and I have to scramble at lunch time to get refills done, so the frequency will be less...BONUS!Attachment 10495Attachment 10496

Prices are in Cdn.

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Originally Posted by 5440

I bought a MM 252 in the spring and my LWS gave me a killer deal on larger tanks, 300 cu ft for their price of their 250's, so I could not resist. COP=Customer Owned Property. They are a pain to lift but I bought a gantry crane for other needs and will use it for the tanks.

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I've been thinking about making a handle that will clamp onto the side of the large tanks to handle them easier.

I have a furniture (vertical) dolly I picked up somewhere that is curved, on the back part, not flat. I do not even have to strap them on it, just learn it far enough, hold the cap and they stay. Takes a lot of weight off me. I can roll the large ones, but hate to run over things with heavy steel. Only one small tank left, but they do not roll well to move them.

The handle idea, might want two on there or a long handle, then attempt to get in the center.

My vote goes to the furniture dolly but only the ones with the bigger wheels. I had a refrigerator delivered the other day. First one in probably 15 years. They didn't use a dolly at all. They just used those straps that go on your forearms.

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Originally Posted by Mr120

My vote goes to the furniture dolly but only the ones with the bigger wheels. I had a refrigerator delivered the other day. First one in probably 15 years. They didn't use a dolly at all. They just used those straps that go on your forearms.

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Mr120, Where are you located? Maybe fill it in, in your profile.

We have a lot of steps here, so that might work better for a frig in my case.

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Originally Posted by 5440

My LWS is only open during the week and I have to scramble at lunch time to get refills done, so the frequency will be less...BONUS!

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Same here but I am lucky enough to get an hour lunch and get paid salary so if it takes me a little extra time it does not matter as I tend to put in way more hours than I get paid for anyways andmy boss understands.

I'm just getting into TIG, I bought my current machine from a friend this weekend. He loaned me the Argon cylinder he was using with it. I need to go get it filled and I'm trying to decide if I should just fill it (80 CF) and use it, or if I should rent/buy a second one for myself. I like the idea of a backup cylinder since my LWS shops (Airgas/praxair) are both only open on weekdays during the hours I work my 8-5 job. I really don't know how much argon I'll be using, I have been using my fluxcore about 3-4 nights a week and have gone through about 8lbs. of wire in about 2 months.

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Originally Posted by breakneckmot

I really don't know how much argon I'll be using, I have been using my fluxcore about 3-4 nights a week and have gone through about 8lbs. of wire in about 2 months.

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Typical TIG flow rate is about 15 cfh. 80 cf / 15 cfh is about 5 hours. Post-flow will affect the accuracy of that number. If you're tacking up a lot, you'll have 1-2 seconds of arc followed by 5-10 seconds of post-flow, whereas when you're welding you might have 20-60 seconds of arc. So the post-flow "overage" varies, but dividing the tank size by 15 will at least give you some basis for comparison.

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Originally Posted by joshuab

Typical TIG flow rate is about 15 cfh. 80 cf / 15 cfh is about 5 hours. Post-flow will affect the accuracy of that number. If you're tacking up a lot, you'll have 1-2 seconds of arc followed by 5-10 seconds of post-flow, whereas when you're welding you might have 20-60 seconds of arc. So the post-flow "overage" varies, but dividing the tank size by 15 will at least give you some basis for comparison.

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Good info, thanks! I really need to get my current bottle swapped/filled and just use it. I really don't know how much arc time I'll be spending a night and the only way to tell will be to start playing I guess.

Thanks for starting this thread: I'm planning on trading in my little 80 cf tank for the next size bigger (~140). I'm a TIG newbie and was a bit surprised to see that cylinder gauge drop so fast. I'm setting up a CK torch with a gas lens so hopefully I'll be able to drop the flow rates a bit.

cheers
JohnG

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Originally Posted by johnnymg

Thanks for starting this thread: I'm planning on trading in my little 80 cf tank for the next size bigger (~140). I'm a TIG newbie and was a bit surprised to see that cylinder gauge drop so fast. I'm setting up a CK torch with a gas lens so hopefully I'll be able to drop the flow rates a bit.

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I crunched the numbers once, and I didn't find that a gas lens saved enough gas to really make up its own cost. If you were burning through a LOT of gas, that math might change. IMO, the real benefits for a hobbyist are increased stickout for better visibility and better reach into narrow corners where a hobbyist's (usually) larger torch would have trouble getting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 5440

I bought a MM 252 in the spring and my LWS gave me a killer deal on larger tanks, 300 cu ft for their price of their 250's, so I could not resist. COP=Customer Owned Property. They are a pain to lift but I bought a gantry crane for other needs and will use it for the tanks. They asked if I wanted to fill out a simple form like a company which was just my name and address so I could get better fill rates that they guarantee for months (but not on Helium gas).

It will be a while before I have to fill these bad boys up. My LWS is only open during the week and I have to scramble at lunch time to get refills done, so the frequency will be less...BONUS!Attachment 10495Attachment 10496

Prices are in Cdn.

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The only tank I can buy here is a 80 cf tank from Praxair at a LWS. $90 for a refill. Acklands is the only other place to get gas and they want $112 for a exchange tank if I am on a 3 yr contract. I think some of these places set their price as they wish. I wish I could get a 330 filled for $98. So due to the contract price of $181 for 3 yrs and $112 for a refill charge the S (138 cf) is about all I want to swing for this hobby. I would hate to see what they would want for a 330cf tank contract and refill.

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Originally Posted by nitris223

The only tank I can buy here is a 80 cf tank from Praxair at a LWS. $90 for a refill. Acklands is the only other place to get gas and they want $112 for a exchange tank if I am on a 3 yr contract. I think some of these places set their price as they wish. I wish I could get a 330 filled for $98. So due to the contract price of $181 for 3 yrs and $112 for a refill charge the S (138 cf) is about all I want to swing for this hobby. I would hate to see what they would want for a 330cf tank contract and refill.

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390 (C25) here is $34. Were are you located? Maybe add that to your profile.

I will add my area. I am in Canada , we get screwed over on just about everything. They always claim that there is not enough sales compared to the States. Just a sad excuse to charge what they like.

At least Everlast Canada has good pricing when you consider the service and all. But that does not help on the argon for sure. It's a shame on the prices up there, but I can assure you things are not all that great here in the states, like healthcare etc. :)

Main thing is keep the gas at the minimum to maximize the tank, and if you can get a larger tank it always help though it's a pain to get filled if you do it yourself.