Arc Force Question

Hi -
I just got a Power Arc 130 and I have aquestion about the "dig" function. This machine is my first experiance with an inverter. From what I've read, dig is suppose to enable additional penetration and reduce sticking during close-arc welding. I do mostly open-root pipe welding and when I run into a situation where I need additional penetration I usually turn up the amperage to burn through a tight fit-up. What is the advantage of using dig vs turning up the heat to accomplish this? Is it to get the penetration without heating up the work piece? I ran a few stringers on flat plate with the dig turned up and it resulted in a mounded, cold looking, high spatter bead. It seems that the machine welds best with the dig turned all the way down. Am I missing something? I would appreciate any input. Thanks.

BTW- I love the PA 130. It really is a nice machine for a great price.

We do not have a 130 nor does the small unit have dig control.

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Originally Posted by performance

We do not have a 130 nor does the small unit have dig control.

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didn't you just order the 300; i remember because you got it wrong that time too. p30 i think you referred to it as. now you have a 130. maybe you could take a moment to look at the machine, maybe a picture, so that we would all be on board with what machine you are actually on.

He's got the PowerARC 300... We all make mistakes.

Attachment 9089 Arc force from the manual>Attachment 9090 Source: http://www.everlastgenerators.com/do...ST-160-200.pdf

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Originally Posted by zoama585

He's got the PowerARC 300... We all make mistakes.

Attachment 9089

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that's true and i make plenty; he ordered the unit on new years day, a P30; we are now talking about a P130; but i think what he's really talking about is this.

Hi- I've purchased a PA140 and am having a hard time welding with 1/8 6011 rod. I've tried all heats from 60-140A. The arc seems very unstable. I find that the only way to kep an arc going is to...

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Originally Posted by fdcmiami

that's true and i make plenty; he ordered the unit on new years day, a P30; we are now talking about a P130; but i think what he's really talking about is this.

Hi- I've purchased a PA140 and am having a hard time welding with 1/8 6011 rod. I've tried all heats from 60-140A. The arc seems very unstable. I find that the only way to kep an arc going is to...

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The 140 doesn't have adjustable arc force, only the 300 does.

I'm Sorry about the typo. I meant PA300.

Since that is clarified...Pushing in, will boost the heat for you. A high spatter bead? What type of electrode are you running? Size? Amps? Likely if you are getting a high spatter bead, you are holding too long of an arc gap. Turn the heat down, keep a tight arc, and turn the arc force up (in general)

As a noob to welding, can you explain the difference between arc force and just turning up the machine? Is the heat applied differently or at different times? I'm just a bit confused on it. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by agent4573

As a noob to welding, can you explain the difference between arc force and just turning up the machine? Is the heat applied differently or at different times? I'm just a bit confused on it. Thanks.

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http://www.everlastgenerators.com/fo...0&d=1357523932

Hi Mark- I was running Lincoln ...1/8" 6010 at 85 amps with a tight arc on 1/8" plate steel. The conditions were identical with the exception of the arc force. The machine seems to run really nice with the arc force turned down, but seems to spatter the puddle when the arc force is turned up high. I was running at the two ends of the dial to try to figure out the effect. . I must be spraying the puddle out with the arc force turned up too much. . I guess its something that I will have to experiment with.

On another note....I really like the machine! I love the portability and the feel of it. The company I work for is still sending out the big old transformers. (They're alot of fun to drag around). I'm trying to get them to switch over to these inverters. I think they will when they get a chance to check out this machine.

Thank you in advance on any tips you can give me on this machine.

Inverters do require slightly different techniques, especially with cellulose fluxed rods.

Turn up the arc force on the 7018 only as much as you need it. It will pop and spit with you if you have too much. Turn it up then back down till it disappears. On 6010, you can crank it up some. Probably around 3 is all you need with 7018.

Thank you, I'll try that.

I have a question about Everlast's implementation of arc force. Does the control adjust the amount of voltage drop before the current increases, the amount of current increase or both? Are there any published curves or graphs of the function? And how about the adaptive arc force used on some models? Just curious.

I'm wondering about the auto arc force on the other model PowerArcs. I'm assuming as you get closer to the work piece arc force increases the voltage? The arc becomes a little more fierce. Quite a bit more for me. This is the part that confuses me though. Since welding with inverters you need to hold a tighter arc, wouldn't that have the affect of having arc force initiated all the time?

When I use 6011s, I had to push the rod in a lot, like trying to bury it,to keep up with the heat. This was because the arc was so fierce at times and would just burn up my rod. And of course that'll just keep kicking the arc force in and feed the vicious cycle. Many times the rod would catch on fire and I'd have to stop to put it out. Wasn't shorting the rod or anything just from normal welding. I'm wondering if the auto arc force feature is essential or if there's a way to turn it off.

Once the voltage drops below about 20 V (approximately) due to a short arc length, the arc force initiates and boosts the amps in relation to the amp setting of the machine. Burying the rod would actually increase the heat. But if you are trying to push in to cool the weld off, then you are welding too hot. YOU DO weld with the arc force activated a lot on an inverter. IF you are having a hard time with the arc force, then it is technique, or the amp setting you are using, because we have lots of guys with these that enjoy them without any problem. I've used them a lot as well. What were your settings and rod brand and size of the 6011? Are you stepping the rod or weaving?

Without arc force on a stick welder, you'll find out why they call it "stick" welding.

That's good to know. I wasn't really trying to find an off switch so to speak. But just wondered what it'll be like to have an inverter without arc force. Guess it would likely stick much more as you're saying. No problem, it is indeed my technique I know. There's still a lot of feeling around to get it just right.

Here's the rundown again, I'll keep it short cus I posted about it before elsewhere. I was using Lincoln fleetweld E 6011 3/32" at 85 amps on DCEP. The weird thing is it wasn't predictable. Sometime that's just perfect and other times I'd be blowing holes in 1/8" square tubing I was welding. Just a straight drag at about 70* (held at 45* to each surface of the fillet) and I'd be blowing the puddle through the tube. Tried it with the hobart 6011 3/32" also, same thing. Other times it'd weld perfect! Hard to learn when you don't know what you're doing wrong. I need an expert next to me to coach my technique. That way at least I know it's not the machine. It'll take some doing but I'll try to post a video sometime.

Oh and tried whipping it but got a lot of slag inclusions and still the same. Oh well. Any tips besides the 3 Ps?

Your arc length was probably hovering right around the arc force voltage point. Turn down the heat a little then you can move in just a little closer. That way you can move in and out of the arc force to modulate the heat. It's a little backwards from a transformer welder, but it doesn't take long to get the knack of it. You actually get a lot of control. I would say about as much as from a good engine driven welder, just different. 70° is about as much rod angle as you want. Try it a little straighter to keep from blowing the puddle away too much.

Alright, I'll have another go at it. Today maybe. The 85 amps was what got me the best results so far. I started at 50 and worked my way up. The hobart 6011s 3/32" ran well hotter, at around 95amps. I'll dial it down some more and see. People have also be telling me that this unit may not be made to run for 5 hours (or more) of straight welding. Any truth to that?

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Originally Posted by Tanh

People have also be telling me that this unit may not be made to run for 5 hours (or more) of straight welding. Any truth to that?

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You do need to stay within the duty cycle. So do not exceed 6 minutes out of every 10. Usually that isn't a problem when constructing something, but with just practice, running bead after bead, you might reach that and need to let it cool off some.

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Originally Posted by Tanh

Alright, I'll have another go at it. Today maybe. The 85 amps was what got me the best results so far. I started at 50 and worked my way up. The hobart 6011s 3/32" ran well hotter, at around 95amps. I'll dial it down some more and see. People have also be telling me that this unit may not be made to run for 5 hours (or more) of straight welding. Any truth to that?

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At 85 amps for 6011 3/32s to 95 amps? No wonder you are smoking the rod. Turn it down to about 65-80. That's all you'll need to run a 3/32 cellulose rod with a welder with arc force control. You can watch this video here about how I used it. This was on 120V too at 80 amps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCFXzL4BvJY

As far as being able to weld 5 hours in a day, that depends on the amperage and duty cycle. Shouldn't be any limitations if you are welding within the duty cycle limits of the welder. Can you cite exactly what was said about it not being able to weld 5 hours straight?

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the tip. I was just going by what was on the packaging. It did seem to stick less at those amps but I'll definitely give lower amps ago. Sharpen up that technique.

As for citing the 5 hour rule, it's was put to me another way. In a pm with Duncan, he says that if you're pushing the machine to the limit of the duty cycle but not hitting it yet, the electronics can still act up. This is paraphrasing from my understanding. And I think that's a reasonable explanation, although a little less tangible than I'd like.

There's no 5 hour rule that I am aware of. Never heard of it. If the units are used within the capacity of the machine the welders are fine. We don't have a high rate of repair with these units...However, if you need to use it 5 hours a day everyday, you've got the wrong welder. Something like the PowerArc 200 is better. NO welder works well for long if you push the duty cycle day in and day out. Old transformers with 100% duty cycle way back in the day would not mind it, but small inexpensive (relatively so) tranformer buzzboxes do not like the duty cycle being pushed for long and they won't hold up. But if you were to buy something like the ideal arc, then you'd never see an issue. The unit is plenty capable, but it isn't a commercial class unit, if that is what the context was. It doesn't mean it can' t be used to weld commercially, but it does mean it should not be expected to handle rough welding jobs day in and day out. It doesn't have enough amperage, for one, and for two, it doesn't have enough duty cycle to make it into the commercial class, though you find other companies that will try to lump 35% duty cycle stick/tig units into a commercial/industrial class. Years ago, the standard was 60% and still should be, but you have marketing wienie brains that want to stretch the "meaning" of words to sell more low end product, because of higher proft margins, and higher sales volume capabilities.

Heat is the enemy of electronics. If you are constantly running near the limit, it is bound to shorten the lifespan. On the other hand if you are running it under light load and keeping it cool, it will last much longer. Duty cycle is also influenced by input voltage, ambient temperature, even arc length will have an effect. I would always buy a machine with some headroom for the typical workload. They always do much better that way, no matter the brand. If you need 140 amps all the time, day in day out, this is probably not the right machine for that. I expected to do 90% of welding between 50 and 100 amps, so this machine fits the bill very nicely. The portability is the big thing for me. This machine can go places my others can't.

EDIT: I guess I type too slow. ;)

I always thought you were supposed to go ~40-50% over on the amps too when sizing a welder. So if you were going to weld in the 150 amps range every day, then a 225 amp welder would do it without thinking twice. If you were going to be welding 1/4 inch plate 8 hours a day then a 300 amp welder would keep you in the sweet spot of duty cycle without having to worry about frying electronics. Thats how I always viewed it anyway. But then again, I never bought a machine I was planning on using for more than a hobby box, so a commercial box for heavy use isn't my real cup of tea.

The shop I was in a few years ago reconditioned heavy machinery. There was a repair welder there that jumped around to different stations. A miller Idealarc or something similar, not too sure. The thing ran hot but only had 10% duty cycle. They always said it was enough and I gathered it would be, not considering the toll time takes on electronic components. Setup takes a few minutes and welding would be a few seconds. Then disconnecting the rig and moving it before setting it up for another job. It never hit 10% or even 5%, I'm sure.

The workload was mismatched to this welder and I see now that I need something substancially bigger to keep up. I originally bought the 140st for odd jobs / repair around the house. When I got it though, all of a sudden bigger projects keep popping up. :P In the spring I have a trailer that needs to be reconditioned and wondering if this little guy can handle it now. Maybe with a lot of coffee breaks. Kinda like working for the town!

There is no 5 hour rule. That was a tongue in cheek comment. This unit will probably work best for me as a low amp tig unit, while I get something more beefy for projects. Many people on the forum have more than 1 welder and I now know why.

A lot of times you can adjust the job to better suit the welder, too. For example when building some things, I have made exact drawings and pre-cut all the material. Then it will be all tacked up and welded out pretty much non-stop. For that I want a machine with plenty of reserve capacity. On the other hand for some things, especially repairs, I will cut a piece, fit it, tack it, then weld it in, before measuring out the next piece, cutting, fitting, etc... So for that kind of work even a small machine is fine. The machine is always waiting on me, not the other way around. If you work in that fashion you will not hit the duty cycle limits. Just break the job down into parts and adjust the parts so that all the welding isn't bunched together.

I have to deal with the same thing when some people ask for fast computers, when the speed of the computer isn't the productivity problem. PEBKAC!

When I was building the table, I had all the lengths precut and ready for assembly. I guess this lumped all the welding within such close time frames that the welder did not have enough time to cool properly. Maybe next time I'll cut to order so to speak and space welding entervals between cutting, fitup and assembly. That should work better for the welder but seems too slow a pace for me.

The table is as done as it's gona get but I haven't updated the thread yet. Hopefully soon and I can show some of the nasty beads I ran.

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

I have a question about Everlast's implementation of arc force. Does the control adjust the amount of voltage drop before the current increases, the amount of current increase or both? Are there any published curves or graphs of the function? And how about the adaptive arc force used on some models? Just curious.

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I too would love to see some graphs, because it would help me visualize what's going on. I've read a few explanations about what's going on electrically when welding (particularly constant-current welding) that were confusing because concepts and units were all scrambled up (for instance, watts being used as a measure of electrical current). I did find one generalized voltage-vs-current graph online (on Miller's website, I think), and that basically allowed me to wrap my head around the fundamentals of what's going on electrically. But having a graph of how the PowerArc 140ST manages volts and amps, versus how the PowerArc 300 manages them with different arc force settings, would be extremely interesting (to me, anyway).

Does the PowerArc 140ST have an arc force function to ramp up current if the voltage drops, even if it's not adjustable with a knob?

Nevermind - just read through the features grid and found my answer - yes it does (auto-regulated).