Anyone run cellulosic E6010 electrodes in TIG 210Ext?

I'm using the R-Tech equivalent of the Everlast TIG 210Ext and am trying to burn Bohler E6010 electrodes. Striking the arc and keeping it lit is a little tricky, but once lit, if I set a drag angle of about 70 degrees I can get the rod to burn, so long as I push it into the workpiece. (Using DC reverse polarity i.e. DC +ve). If I keep the rod perpendicular to the workpiece e.g. root run, vertical up, I just cannot keep the arc lit for any length of time.

I've read that, in general, inverters struggle to run E6010 cellulosic electrodes.

I've tried different settings of arc force/dig as well as hot start but they don't seem to help.

Has anyone tried cellulosic E6010s with the TIG 210 and, if so, are there any tips you can give me?

Many thanks

Martin

Maybe you should post this in TIG category also...

I'm interested in the answer as well because I was thinking about getting 210EXT. I need to be able to run 6010 root for pipe certification.

All I know is if the rod is sticking because you need to maintain tight arc, you need to increase the arc force. Hot start is just to make scratch start easier.

What size rod and amp were you running? Maybe there's a hidden menu you need to adjust...

If I get some time this weekend I will fire up mine with 6010 and test it. I have not ran any stick in it since I have other welders.

Now mine is not an R-tech, so I can not comment there. But I can tell you if ours will run 6010. I need to get the 210ext on a cart, too many welders and not enough room or carts here.

On an inverter, running 6010 you DO push in. Technique is different for sure from a transformer. That does not necessarily mean it is more difficult, but only different. You always need to keep a tight arc. But the R tech is not the equivalent model despite what you might think. There are many differences internally despite the outward similarities. But in general you need to set your arc force higher and increase your hot start current to revent sticking. Increasing the duration of the hot start (If you have the adjustment) will also improve starting. IF you have them try the Lincoln 5P+ or ESAB atom arc 6010. There are differences in how these run while welding, and some rods like some machines better than others.

Thanks so much for all the truly helpful replies.

I was using Bohler Fox Cell 2.5mm E6010s and found it best to run at 80-85A, which is at the top end of the recommended range. These rods are primarily recommended for vertical down pipework. And I've started to think that's why I have had some difficulties. I've been trying for ages to get some Lincoln rods, but here in the UK, generally, you can get any rod so long as it's a 6013. Almost every time, I've had to justify why I want a 6010 and why I don't want an "alternative" 6013 instead. I'm hoping the Lincoln UK rep can get me a few sample 5P+ rods as well as some Fleetweld 180s, which is a 6011 cellulosic which can run on sets with an open-circuit voltage as low as 50V. ( I bought the Bohlers because, after months of trying, they were all I could get by way of 6010s in a 10 lb quantity.)

I contacted R-Tech and, despite their TIG 210's specs giving 62V as the no-load volts, I was told that "Our machines run about 75V and we do have customers welding some cellulosic rods ok". So that, plus the kind replies to this thread make me think cellulosic rods should, in general, run on the TIG210.

Thanks for the correction regarding the Everlast 210Ext and the R-Tech TIG 210. I'd mistakenly understood they were equivalents from some forum posting as well as a comparison of the specs and the hidden menus. It was R-Tech's refusal to discuss the hidden menu that lead me to discover Everlast and this forum. (Every cloud has a silver lining.)

I'm really very grateful for the replies and I await with keen interest details of trials with the Everlast 210Ext burning E6010 rods.

Martin

OCV has less to do with the ability to run 7018 as does the actual output while welding. That reading is what you should be concerned about. Have you measured the voltage while welding 6010? BTW 6010 is ONLY DC+. Also if your unit has a VRD, take it off and use it without. That will likely improve things, especially the start. Fleetweld 180's or 35's from Lincoln will do the trick I am sure for most welders. For a 3/32 (2.4 mm) that is about the correct amp range...maybe slightly high.

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Originally Posted by Martine

I've been trying for ages to get some Lincoln rods, but here in the UK, generally, you can get any rod so long as it's a 6013. Almost every time, I've had to justify why I want a 6010 and why I don't want an "alternative" 6013 instead.

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This sounds odd, as though you are trying to convince a salesman at a store to sell you the electrodes that you want. Is that the case? I searched online and sure enough, UK online suppliers sell 6013- if they bother to describe the electrode at all, that is, beyond "mild steel". Glad you were able to find some, eventually!

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Originally Posted by performance

On an inverter, running 6010 you DO push in. Technique is different for sure from a transformer.

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I never knew that; many thanks. That helps explain a great deal. Sp can you whip and pause with a 6010 on an inverter the same way you can with a transformer-rectifier?

Martin

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Originally Posted by Martine

I never knew that; many thanks. That helps explain a great deal. Sp can you whip and pause with a 6010 on an inverter the same way you can with a transformer-rectifier?

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No, they do not behave the same. I noticed this right off with 6011 on an inverter. 7018 was about the same, but the 6011 was not like a transformer or engine driven welder at all. It's almost backwards in the way arc force and arc length work. Took a little practice to get used to it. I'm sure you will pick it up in no time. I would use the same family of machine you are going to test on, inverter, transformer, or engine driven. Otherwise the differences might be a problem. My favorite used to be engine driven, but now I'm really liking the inverter.

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Originally Posted by performance

OCV has less to do with the ability to run 7018 as does the actual output while welding. That reading is what you should be concerned about. Have you measured the voltage while welding 6010? BTW 6010 is ONLY DC+. Also if your unit has a VRD, take it off and use it without. That will likely improve things, especially the start. Fleetweld 180's or 35's from Lincoln will do the trick I am sure for most welders. For a 3/32 (2.4 mm) that is about the correct amp range...maybe slightly high.

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I really should have mentioned that VRD was, and remains, switched off. Good idea: I'd been intending to 'scope the voltage across the leads whilst running a 6010; I intend to do so soon and report back.

Many thanks

Martin

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Originally Posted by Rambozo

No, they do not behave the same. I noticed this right off with 6011 on an inverter. 7018 was about the same, but the 6011 was not like a transformer or engine driven welder at all. It's almost backwards in the way arc force and arc length work. Took a little practice to get used to it. I'm sure you will pick it up in no time. I would use the same family of machine you are going to test on, inverter, transformer, or engine driven. Otherwise the differences might be a problem. My favorite used to be engine driven, but now I'm really liking the inverter.

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Now the jigsaw's really starting to take shape. Your experience has probably saved me a great deal of time, and given me a big leg up the learning curve for no cost in time or rods. Sincere thanks.

Martin

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Originally Posted by DaveO

This sounds odd, as though you are trying to convince a salesman at a store to sell you the electrodes that you want. Is that the case? I searched online and sure enough, UK online suppliers sell 6013- if they bother to describe the electrode at all, that is, beyond "mild steel". Glad you were able to find some, eventually!

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Yes, you've hit the nail on the head. I expect you found it hard to believe the UK could lag so far behind the welding drag curve? I keep wondering the same thing especially when I see all the priceless info that I can get from US sites and forums.

When I started looking for some 6010s a few months ago, the resident welding expert in a local welding supplies firm talked me into buying some Oerlikon Overcord Z rods instead. These are E6013s but it turns out they have some cellulose in the flux coating. Quite a nice rod and a useful lesson in getting experience with different rods, but it's still a 6013. And it's taught me to stick to my guns; just as well, otherwise I'd have a garage full of different brands of 6013s by now.

Martin

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Originally Posted by Martine

I expect you found it hard to believe the UK could lag so far behind the welding drag curve?

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Well, yes, now that you mention it: how can the UK, as a country, operate on 6013s alone?

I did find Lincoln Fleetweld 5p+ rods at a UK online site, btw: a 5 kg package for about 49 Pounds Sterling, nearly US$80 for about 11 pounds of rod. That was including VAT but before shipping. Ouch!

Here:
http://www.rapidwelding.com/dynamic/...5P&po=01CF255P

Do you have to always keep tight arc or can you long arc on 210EXT? Like 1 or 2 inches of arc length? Sometimes I need to strike away from where I'm going to weld, then long arc over to start the bead..

I thought VRD was for safety reasons... turning it on/off affects the arc?

Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Ultraman

Do you have to always keep tight arc or can you long arc on 210EXT? Like 1 or 2 inches of arc length? Sometimes I need to strike away from where I'm going to weld, then long arc over to start the bead..

I thought VRD was for safety reasons... turning it on/off affects the arc?

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Inverters have protection circuits that will shut off the arc if the voltage gets too high from too long an arc.

VRD is for safety, but I can see how it might make for a hard start depending on how fast it reacts.

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Originally Posted by DaveO

Well, yes, now that you mention it: how can the UK, as a country, operate on 6013s alone?

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Where ignorance is bliss.....,, For coded jobs, of course special electrodes are used, but the crux of the matter is that in the UK, both 6010s and 7018s are considered special rods. How it got to this is another matter.

Anyway, thanks for going to all that trouble to find me the Rapidweld link. I recently figured if ever I went to the US, I'd be coming back with my baggage allowance filled by 4 boxes of Lincoln rods!

Martin

I can go into the local hardware store and buy 7018s by the rod, by the pound or by the 50 lb box. 7018's are a dime a dozen. 6011's are the standard staple, and 6010's can be bought about anywhere.

Ultraman,
You can't normally long arc a transformer at 2 inches either...an inch maybe. But if you are doing that, then you have a problem with technique. Long arcs introduce inclusions and porosity. That's one reason an inverter works well for high quality welds, it keeps you from doing it. If you draw a long arc with an inverter, it causes the amp draw to soar (from the wall), and the unit will shut down.

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Originally Posted by performance

OCV has less to do with the ability to run 7018 as does the actual output while welding. That reading is what you should be concerned about. Have you measured the voltage while welding 6010? BTW 6010 is ONLY DC+. Also if your unit has a VRD, take it off and use it without. That will likely improve things, especially the start. Fleetweld 180's or 35's from Lincoln will do the trick I am sure for most welders. For a 3/32 (2.4 mm) that is about the correct amp range...maybe slightly high.

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I've stuck my Fluke oscilloscope across the output, measuring voltage. The welding amps was set to 75A and I set zero hot start. I ran my Bohler 6010s at zero arc force and then at 100% arc force. For comparison, I ran some ESAB OK 6013s (also 3/32") at the same current and similarly set to DC+.


1. Open circuit voltage on my R-Tech TIG 210P is 57V.

2. Welding voltage for the 6010 averages 30V (26~34V).

3. Welding voltage for the 6013 averages 22V (18~26V).

4. At no time does arc force kick in with the 6010. On the other hand, occasionally arc force does kick in with the 6013. When it does, the welding volts rises by 5-8V, the arc brightens and is louder, and the arc force LED lights up on the front panel for the half second or so that arc force is engaged. (If I'd had a current clamp and measured welding current on the other channel, I would have expected to see the amps rise from 75A to 150A (100% arc force) for the same period.)

Now, i've read the Miller article on arc force at http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...rticle108.html but the arc force on my inverter does not alter the shape of the volts-amps curve or changes the arc from soft, buttery to forceful and digging. My inverter is a true constant-current machine - rock solid at the welding amps regardless of the voltage (arc length). I believe arc force kicks in when the voltage drops below a threshold of around 18-20 V, at which point the welding current jumps to the higher value as set by the % arc force for the fraction of a second it takes for the arc voltage to rise above the threshold. This would explain why arc force doesn't engage when 6010s are burned: the arc voltage stays above 26V or so.

Martin

Your arc force IS the change in welding amps. As you push in amps go up to compensate for the voltage loss. It does kick in when volts drop. That's exactly why I told you to push in. That's what triggers it. Burying your rod in the puddle will produce surprising results. Running arc force at 0 will produce no change but at a higher set up it would...but ONLY when voltage drops.. I don't know why you would not run a 6010 with an arc force setting turned up. The volt amp curve refers to the this relationship change between volts and amps. But the voltage which you are running your 6010 at tells me that it is correct, and it's likely your technique that is at fault here. Otherwise it should weld. Don't mean to demoralize you, but the readings confirm you are holding too long of an arc length, and not pushing in to activate the arc force control. The soft/buttery/sharp/crisp arc is a subjective idea of what is going on how the arc force control behaves...not something that is truly tangible.

Arc force is a reactive thing that compensates for the amount of "extra" juice is put into the weld when voltage drops below the threshold, reacting to increase the amps proportionately to the voltage loss. The amount of reaction is set by the arc force control. 0-100% isn't twice the amps you have set, but a relative number that caps the amount of arc force control that is put in at any given welding amp. Typically you won't see more than 50 amps or so increase.

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Originally Posted by performance

Your arc force IS the change in welding amps. As you push in amps go up to compensate for the voltage loss. It does kick in when volts drop. That's exactly why I told you to push in. That's what triggers it. Burying your rod in the puddle will produce surprising results. Running arc force at 0 will produce no change but at a higher set up it would...but ONLY when voltage drops.. I don't know why you would not run a 6010 with an arc force setting turned up. The volt amp curve refers to the this relationship change between volts and amps. But the voltage which you are running your 6010 at tells me that it is correct, and it's likely your technique that is at fault here. Otherwise it should weld. Don't mean to demoralize you, but the readings confirm you are holding too long of an arc length, and not pushing in to activate the arc force control. The soft/buttery/sharp/crisp arc is a subjective idea of what is going on how the arc force control behaves...not something that is truly tangible.

Arc force is a reactive thing that compensates for the amount of "extra" juice is put into the weld when voltage drops below the threshold, reacting to increase the amps proportionately to the voltage loss. The amount of reaction is set by the arc force control. 0-100% isn't twice the amps you have set, but a relative number that caps the amount of arc force control that is put in at any given welding amp. Typically you won't see more than 50 amps or so increase.

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I really appreciate your taking the time to explain arc force - especially as my inverter is not an Everlast one.

I had another look at my inverter's arc force in operation; I watched the Amps Out readout whilst laying a bead with a 6013, and, in my case, the welding amps is exactly determined by the % arc force. So with 75A set, the Amps Out reads a rock-solid 75A unless and until arc force kicks in wherein it jumps instantly to 150A at 100% arc force (and 131A at 75% arc force). And then, an instant later it drops back to 75A as the arc force has done its stuff and caused the arc voltage to rise above the threshold (20V?) at which arc force kicks in.

Do you think the next generation of inverters will have true adjustment of the Volt-Amps curve characteristic, where the slope/shape of the curve would be truly adjustable, from what it is now, a vertical line (constant amps) to a genuinely drooping/sloping curve? Arc force (on my inverter) effectively is an instantaneous jump from one vertical, constant-current line to another one to the right and back again a fraction of a second later, whereas to truly mimic the transformer-rectifier, you would have a downward sloping/drooping line where a decrease in arc volts (shorter arc) would bring about a proportional, smooth and lasting increase in current, and not just at one point on the curve (the threshold voltage). At present, on my machine at least, arc force is a pulse of increased current, whereas in an ideal world you'd have a smoothly increasing current over a range of falling voltage. Of course, it may well be that my inverter's arc force circuitry is fairly basic and not representative of arc force in more advanced inverters out there, certainly, that Miller article makes me think that might be the case.

Given that I believe it's only with cellulosics that you want a sloping curve, all other rods are fine with vertical, constant current curves, you wouldn't necessarily need an adjustable volts-amps curve, just a switch to select the cellulosic characteristic.

Once again, many thanks for your kind input.

Martin

Thanks for all the testing. It answers some nagging questions I've had. I have been making the transition between transformers and engine driven, to inverters. There are some inverters that have a special 6010 port (Everlast PA200) with different voltage settings, so that feature exists already. While I don't burn a lot of 6010, I am interested in how things work, and how to adjust my technique to get the best from every machine. In the past using a TIG machine to do some stick welding, it was clear that the amp/volt curve was much different, but I just used the foot pedal as a manual arc force control, if you will, and it made it easy, even when I had to deal will a terrible fitup on an existing building.

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Originally Posted by Martine

I really appreciate your taking the time to explain arc force - especially as my inverter is not an Everlast one.

I had another look at my inverter's arc force in operation; I watched the Amps Out readout whilst laying a bead with a 6013, and, in my case, the welding amps is exactly determined by the % arc force. So with 75A set, the Amps Out reads a rock-solid 75A unless and until arc force kicks in wherein it jumps instantly to 150A at 100% arc force (and 131A at 75% arc force). And then, an instant later it drops back to 75A as the arc force has done its stuff and caused the arc voltage to rise above the threshold (20V?) at which arc force kicks in.

Do you think the next generation of inverters will have true adjustment of the Volt-Amps curve characteristic, where the slope/shape of the curve would be truly adjustable, from what it is now, a vertical line (constant amps) to a genuinely drooping/sloping curve? Arc force (on my inverter) effectively is an instantaneous jump from one vertical, constant-current line to another one to the right and back again a fraction of a second later, whereas to truly mimic the transformer-rectifier, you would have a downward sloping/drooping line where a decrease in arc volts (shorter arc) would bring about a proportional, smooth and lasting increase in current, and not just at one point on the curve (the threshold voltage). At present, on my machine at least, arc force is a pulse of increased current, whereas in an ideal world you'd have a smoothly increasing current over a range of falling voltage. Of course, it may well be that my inverter's arc force circuitry is fairly basic and not representative of arc force in more advanced inverters out there, certainly, that Miller article makes me think that might be the case.

Given that I believe it's only with cellulosics that you want a sloping curve, all other rods are fine with vertical, constant current curves, you wouldn't necessarily need an adjustable volts-amps curve, just a switch to select the cellulosic characteristic.

Once again, many thanks for your kind input.

Martin

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I believe you will find that there is a "reactive" aspect to the arc force...not an all or nothing, once the arc force is engaged. It is your arc length that is probably sending it sky high. As I said the 100% setting you can expect to see more extreme reaction. The more you push in the higher the amperage will go. In fact, if you try to extinguish the arc, on say our PA 200 with the 6010, you will not likely be successful as the amps keep going up and the rod keeps burning even with pressure on it. But if you hold it tight the amps only shoot up moderately. The 210 you have likely does the same thing, but it may be your testing method since every inverter with arc force control (adjustable or not) I have ever run reacts proportionately to the arc length. You are likely intentionally triggering the arc the backing out of it intentionally and getting an "overreaction". I can't be 100% sure about this, but it is what seems to be happening. As far as the droopers are concerned, they are really not in favor anymore, and even now with more modern transformer tech, they have eliminated most of what they can in my understanding. In short the transformer style weld has its drawbacks and people see the benefit of the inverter style weld and are quickly adopting it whereever possible. I will try our 210 out soon on 6010 but I am pretty sure the thing you are talking about is an overreaction on your part to what is happening in the weld. Miller also has an article out that states the difficulty people have "passing" their certs on an inverter if they have never used one before and vice versa. Having used both, and being initially trained on some of the best transformers (ideal arc and dial arc machines) available, I'll choose the inverter. I never had a problem going back and forth though, but since I have an mind that kind of adapts to what is presented, and problems solves on the go, I think it was probably easier for me than most.