ac balance on stickmode

I noticed that when my PowerPro 256 is set for stick mode, the pulse function can still be active, (amperage meter jumps all over the place). I was wondering if anyone has had experience with using the ac balance feature with an ac rod like 6011. seems like pulse would be better for uphill vertical, and ac balance could be set for more cleaning on dirty metal.

If setting the machine for stick mode does not cancel out the features that can be used on TIG mode, then why have a mode switch to change between TIG and stick?

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Originally Posted by DannyB1954

If setting the machine for stick mode does not cancel out the features that can be used on TIG mode, then why have a mode switch to change between TIG and stick?

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The mode switch also engages the HF start function for TIG, which is not present in SMAW mode. But you are right, pulse and AC balance should be disabled when you go into stick mode, because most people would assume that they are inoperative. I asked a similar question a few months ago, and Mark stated that this was not the intended behavior, but that some do the 256s may have been wired differently.

http://www.everlastgenerators.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17682

Cheers
Mike

Guys, that is a good question, but with a complicated answer. The unit, unless I am not remembering right welds on DC only. Cleaning on steel is not needed btw. Even stick aluminum rods do not run AC.

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Originally Posted by performance

Guys, that is a good question, but with a complicated answer. The unit, unless I am not remembering right welds on DC only. Cleaning on steel is not needed btw. Even stick aluminum rods do not run AC.

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The Powerpro 256 is a multi purpose ac/dc welder, no? If I set it to stick, and ac, it welds in dc? What if I want to weld a stick in ac mode like a 6011?

What happens if I set it to Tig ac, but attach the stick stinger instead of the Tig torch? (leaving the argon bottle off). do I get a pulse stick with HF start and foot control? Or does smoke come out from under the green cover?

The machines are designed to override some settings when switched to stick. And stick is always DC only.
I have discovered the pulse is not overridden and on the newest units the start amp and slope controls are not overridden. Frankly I don’t usually test units in modes that shouldn’t be used, so this might be why some may act differently,as I suspect the factory does not routinely check to see if settings are overridden ether, which might account for some variances.

As far as A/C stick welding goes, I have burnt literally tons off rod in my life. But don’t claim to be an expert on welding rods. But I don’t know of any A/C only rod, 6011 is A/C– D/C and welds much better in DC. The only reason I know of there even being A/C welding is because A/C welders are super simple and cheap to make, all you need is a big transformer with some taps for voltage. In short it’s a compromise, have I welded in A/C before, sure lots, do I like to, Heck no, can you tell the difference in an A/C weld compared to a D/C weld heck yea, mostly because of the splatter. So anyway I don’t know why anyone would weld in A/C unless you only have a buzz box.

I have seen a few units that have been modified to not override the A/C in stick, but it can also mess up the plasma operation if set to A/C.
I always recommend verifying the pulse is off, and the start/end and slope controls (the green knobs) be set to zero to ensure proper operation.

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Originally Posted by Ray

And stick is always DC only.

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Yeah, I was also under the impression that the 256 could operate in AC stick mode. I mean the product page mentions AC quite often, but it never says that this only works in TIG mode. Heck, I've turned AC on purposefully to see how a rod would burn. That might explain why it seemed identical to DC. I have no rational reason to use AC, but I'm still a bit disappointed.

BTW, the manual claims that AC works in stick mode (section 2, bullet 12). I know you guys apparently don't have editorial control over this document, but you really should. I read the manual before I ordered my welder, and I refer back to it often.

Thanks
Mike

I put that information together a while back. It was based off of information provided by the factory. We're going to be updating it all, completely so, we will have it changed.

Thanks, Mark.

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Originally Posted by performance

I put that information together a while back. It was based off of information provided by the factory. We're going to be updating it all, completely so, we will have it changed.

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While you are updating the manual, please finish the sentence at the end of page 15. It is discussing what the typical connections are for MMA, but it does not give the solution. It says, " For most MMA/stick welding situations," and then nothing more on page 16. My guess would be that It would say to put the stinger into positive and ground into negative.

I have just had the machine a few days, and hooked up the air for the plasma and argon for the TIG yesterday. So far I am very happy with the unit. I think that having pulse on stick mode would be handy for uphill vertical welds. As far as AC stick welding, I was reading on welding tips and tricks, that with sheet metal 6011 AC downhill on verticals works well. AC weld characteristics are a compromise between DC straight and reversed. Not having AC stick is not a deal breaker for me as I do have another stick welder.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not unhappy with having more choices for the otherwise drab and boring modes. Just I was not expecting them is all.

You really dont need ac in stick mode. The only reason you would ever need to use it is if your metal has some magnitism that had formed in it and are getting arc blow, the ac switches directions like 60 times a second causeing the arc blow to calm down. Other then that just bout everything can run in dc and runs better in dc. The arc is smoother and its much easyier to run most rods better.

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Originally Posted by bobwills

You really dont need ac in stick mode. The only reason you would ever need to use it is if your metal has some magnitism that had formed in it and are getting arc blow, the ac switches directions like 60 times a second causeing the arc blow to calm down. Other then that just bout everything can run in dc and runs better in dc. The arc is smoother and its much easyier to run most rods better.

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I was just surprised that a welder that can put out 200+ amps of AC in TIG mode can not do so in stick mode. I am OK with it really, but the manual describes the machine differently than what I am told it is now. I played with it for a couple of hours today and had no problems.
The online spec sheet also has a different specs than the machine that I have. Not a big deal, they just changed the welder before they changed the manuals and specs. I am still happy with it, just a little confused at times.

Yeah, I don't mean to sound like I am complaining. .... I still really like my machine. However, come to think of it now, I've probably never tested AC on my machine. When I first received my 256, I was not setup for TIG, so I posted a message asking how I could test the TIG functions with out argon. Someone suggested running some 7018AC in stick mode, which I did, and it would now appear that it actually ran in DC. :( I guess I know what I'll be doing tonight ;) .

Danny, like you, I was just looking to understand the mode settings better. I had hoped to build my self a cheat sheet around which features worked in which modes. However, it appears that it also depends on what minor sub-version of the machine wiring that you have. I will just have to go through the panel each time I set up to weld and ensure that the settings make sense for the operation ... can't assume that something has been disabled.

Cheers
Mike

Something is different in stick mode when you switch from DC to AC. The amp meter changes, the weld sound changes and the weld looks a bit different.
I tried to check it out with a voltmeter, but was unable to watch the meter while holding a steady bead, ( I don't own a movie camera). Before a weld is started, the voltage in both AC and DC mode are the same, (DC), but when an ark is struck, something changes.
If someone cares to try it, run a bead using DC then run a bead by flipping to AC with no other changes, and tell me what you think. Use whatever rod you like.I used 3/32 6011,7014, and 7018.

Maybe I am just crazy, but I like it that way.

Danny, pulse would likely cause porosity in a weld the way the stick welding works. For up hill, 3g welding, the arc force control on the EX and the new DX will help make it a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by performance

Danny, pulse would likely cause porosity in a weld the way the stick welding works. For up hill, 3g welding, the arc force control on the EX and the new DX will help make it a lot easier.

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I originally purchased the PP 256 for it's TIG functions, (I have a 250 amp AC/DC gas powered Lincoln stick welder already), but the shipping was so quick I did not yet have an argon bottle. I started playing with the stick function. I retired as a mechanic, so it may be a character defect of mine to try to figure out how something works instead of just using it. It did some curious things like not having the pulse disabled, so this led me to wonder what else was different, and how it could be used to a new advantage. I do like the way the PP256 welds, and the Lincoln may just become a back up power source for the house.

I was just curious as to what changes when in stick mode, and one switches between AC and DC. I am told in stick mode the Powerpro 256 is strictly a DC welder, but something changes when the AC/DC switch is flipped. To my ears in DC mode the weld noise is smoother, more like a hiss instead of a crackle. I could be wrong about it of course, but it just seems that way. The manual says one thing, tech support another, so I am just trying to sort it out.

One place where I used to work the old timers could tell if your machine was set correctly from across the room with their eyes closed, just by the sound the weld gave off while working. The last place I worked, there was an engineer who had designed a robot welder that could crawl up the side of a ship while welding. It would adjust itself to changing conditions by monitoring the sound characteristics.

You will hear a sound difference when going between ac and dc. Dc is just a lot smoother. You will almost always want to stick weld in dc. And the reason that dc stick is like 40 amps below what ac tig puts out could be several things. Maybe eneffecency with the dc recterfire changes it a bit. I really dont know. All I do know is all ac dc stick welders have that. Like the lincolns are 225 ac but only 125 in dc. So the 40 amps less aint bad.

My Mosfet-based Everlast Super200P seems to "do it all" in stick mode... AC, AC Balance, pulsing, even the footpedal (for current control.) Whether any of that is useful or not is a separate question. I will say that my learning curve on stick probably would have been a little easier if the machine didn't allow all those different ways of changing the stick mode arc and only allowed DC. :P

The main thing that putting my Super200P into stick mode seems to do is turn off the gas solenoid (and related functions like pre- and post-flow), turn off the high frequency starting (and also up/downslope), and it also turns on the "arc force" also. (Which doesn't seem to make any difference in TIG mode.)

Since the Super200P's current display always displays what the machine is "trying" to put out for arc current, it reads 0 in TIG mode when at idle, but in stick mode it will read whatever the machine would try to run at if you struck an arc. It's handy for checking current settings, footpedal ranges, pulsing current settings (with the pulsing frequency turned down low enough to see the separate peak and background current settings), etc.

It uses the same current output range (0-200amps) for both stick and TIG. But since stick arc is higher voltage, I know it draws more power out of the wall (and is possibly harder on some of the machine's components and) when in stick mode than in TIG. Plasma mode is also a pretty high voltage mode. The only time I've ever tripped a breaker (30amps) with it was when it was in plasma mode (which I think is limited to 40-50 amps max, or something like that.)

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Originally Posted by bobwills

You will hear a sound difference when going between ac and dc. Dc is just a lot smoother. You will almost always want to stick weld in dc. And the reason that dc stick is like 40 amps below what ac tig puts out could be several things. Maybe eneffecency with the dc recterfire changes it a bit. I really dont know. All I do know is all ac dc stick welders have that. Like the lincolns are 225 ac but only 125 in dc. So the 40 amps less aint bad.

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Yes, but according to tech support, my machine only uses AC for it's TIG functions, They say stick is always DC. So I am wondering what is actually being changed when I move the selector from DC to AC on stick mode.

I do a lot of stick welding a real big thing with stick welding , When welding ac mode stick welding older welding rod don't show up to much on welding , but when dc welding stick make sure you store your welding rod in a dry box or a place with no moisture. i keep my stick rod in a hot box its a heats box to keep it dry so it dont go bad . I have friends give the large stuff all the time since i do a lot of hard facing on tractor blade scoops . i toss it since after old and gets damp its junk welding rod . sorta sad to toss since 10# Cabot Haynes Stellite COBALT 1/4 isnt cheap . lol i use a old miller AEAD weld it like 20 year old but kick but on stick welding and also is a 300 amp welder .

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Originally Posted by Rodsmachineshop

I do a lot of stick welding a real big thing with stick welding , When welding ac mode stick welding older welding rod don't show up to much on welding , but when dc welding stick make sure you store your welding rod in a dry box or a place with no moisture. i keep my stick rod in a hot box its a heats box to keep it dry so it dont go bad . I have friends give the large stuff all the time since i do a lot of hard facing on tractor blade scoops . i toss it since after old and gets damp its junk welding rod . sorta sad to toss since 10# Cabot Haynes Stellite COBALT 1/4 isnt cheap . lol i use a old miller AEAD weld it like 20 year old but kick but on stick welding and also is a 300 amp welder .

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I keep my rods in a plastic tube with a screw on cover with a gasket. Even my 7018 rods weld nice, (Low hydrogen rods are real finicky around moisture). What this thread was about was I was curious about having pulse mode active in stick mode. I then asked about AC balance in AC stick mode. I was told that my model, (powerpro 256) only uses DC in stick mode. So my question then became why does the sound change when I flip the selector from DC to AC. The amp meter display also changes. So my question is actually model specific. I am just trying to figure out the settings and features.

On drying out old rods, I use an old toaster oven that I bought at a thrift store. I crank it up and let the rods cook for a couple of hours. When the oven burns up, I get another one for $10 or so. After they cool, I seal them up in the plastic container with an air tight lid. Some people say this doesn't work, but I think that they are welding rod sales people. If a rod can absorb moisture at 70 degrees, I say it can give it up at 300/400. Anything above 212 degrees should actually work. The hotter it gets the further apart the water molecules get from each other.

On stick it bumps up the voltage that is why it has lower amp and duty cycle. I think it should cancel those options in stick I would see if the switch works. On my powertig it cancels the options.

I also use an old toaster oven for baking the rods. Works great except it just aint quite wide enough to fit the rods in without putting them in on an angle and the door bairly closes.

I store a lot of rods in my food vacuum storage bags seams to work well

that toaster oven is a great . i have like 2 or 3 laying around the shop

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Originally Posted by bobwills

I also use an old toaster oven for baking the rods. Works great except it just aint quite wide enough to fit the rods in without putting them in on an angle and the door bairly closes.

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I will have to remember that... Wonder if you could cut a slot in the side so the unfluxed end would stick out.

that a good one then you could just leave the front shut and just slide the rods in to dry