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I have a 200dx and sometimes I get shocked when I start to weld, its the hand holding the torch. What do I need to check?
I am also getting shocked when I feed the rod into the puddle, I'm not sure what I have done, or what to check
Any suggestions would be awesome!
I am welding on an old aluminum riveted boat and it sucks!
How old are your gloves your using? Also, have they been used for anything else than welding? Assuming that they are as dry as possible. If you have been using them for grinding, have old oil residue on them, then they may have a fine carbon or metal grinding coating and then they become a potential grounding source. I learned the hard way.... don't use your gloves working around the shop. They can pick up a lot of debris that becomes embedded on the surface that conducts electricity.
Of course check the electrode holder for cracks that happen from time to time when you drop it and contamination on it.
I have gotten shocked when firing my tig (PU 205P) and touching my nearby welding trailer, but I would bet that the PU 205P is broadcasting high frequency to my nearby welding trailer since the PowerUltra chassis was not grounded when it happened.
Thurmond
That's the HF jumping through. You are grounding yourself out and likely have damp gloves from moisture. Its part of welding, and in part why people with pace makers can't tig weld.
sorry man, that's the ####ty part of the 'old school' attitude. that's like saying arc burns are a part of welding, or breathing fumes is a part of welding. I tigged for a number of years in near 100% humidity in michigan (no, it's not like the gulf, but it's close) and never had that kind of breakthrough. sure, got shocked a few times when I wasn't wearing gloves with the table grounded, leaning on the table with a T-shirt. it's all about what's the easiest path to ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by performance
most likely it's time for some new gloves and maybe some new shoes. you might also try moving your ground clamp closer to where you're working. HF can find a path to ground easier than the low freq AC, so you might be the best path if your ground is at the other end of the boat. also, try to see if you can put something insulative (wood, a welding blanket, whatever) between your hand and the boat. it should help, if you can manage it.
Mark, on a side note, about 70% of your posts put me off. I know you don't mean any hard feelings, but your tone is almost 100% negative. were you not affiliated with the company, I'd just ignore you, but you are, and I expect a bit better from someone who's trying to sell me something.
Ogorir,
I'm negative when I need to be. I positive when I should be. I'm a pragmatic person. Anyone that has dealt with me knows that. I don't think what I said was negative. It was an observation. You on the other hand missed that he is in a very humid area, likely to be much hotter than anything you get in Michigan. Drenching sweat this time of year is a given. You also missed the fact that when he feeds his rod he is getting shocked as well, which tell me that its likely his gloves are becoming damp with it. I live in an area that has already hit 101 and 95% humidity....so I know what its like. You can change the clamp and do all you want, but getting shocked does come with welding as does getting burned, and other things eventually. Yes, I said it. Anyone that is pragmatic realizes this. Ask anyone on this site that has been welding for any real length of time in less than ideal circumstances and they will tell you. If they ever welded in the rain, because they had to, or were so hot that they had to cheat on the protective covering because it was either get burned or die of heat stroke or had to weld inside a rail car with very little ventilation even wearing a respirator, they will all tell you its true. Its NOT old school or anything of the sort. Its seasoned reality. Sometimes welding sucks. Sometimes, its fun...but mostly its hard work.
As a further note, coming here, insulting a mod with just a few days under your belt isn't an ideal way to make friends, particularly out of the fellows that have been around awhile and know how we roll. I've got well over 1000 posts contributing and working to help people. We work hard for and in the company. All of us with mod powers do, and this is something we do additionally to our regular activities. I have to accept the fact, not everyone is going to like my ruling. I also have a job to do. I make NO apologies for it. Any body that has bought a welder from me personally knows how concerned I am about them,and work to follow up with them personally should any issue arise and even for the people that don't. I work with tech support as well so I handle a lot of issues directly for many others as well. But I do have a little patience or sympathy when it comes to people failing to read the directions, particularly when great pains have been put forth to get them in black and white and make them available for all to read. A little mercurial? Maybe. But after you answer a few dozen phone calls after people haven't read their welder directions cussing at you because the welder won't work, you'll see.
Edit:
After checking your profile, I see you are 22, not quite seasoned. I am almost 40. Not old by any circumstance, however, when you were born, I had already been welding for about 8 years. I THINK by now along with my several years of formal welding training, welding for others, welding for myself, and being a fair fabricator and running my own business, and also a collegiate background in Ag Education, talking with literally 1000's of customers, etc. I do have some knowledge you probably haven't been hit in the face with yet. Hang in there, you will eventually get smacked with reality of life just as we all are eventually. Class dismissed.
What I see is you being defensive time and time again. As I said, I know you aren't trying to offend anyone, I've figured that out. but, most of your posts I look at and think "wtf is this guy on about."
I state my opinion, regardless of whether you're a mod. it's certainly better than not saying something and giving you an unnecessarily snarky response pent up from frequently being mildly annoyed by your posts tone. If that's not kosher here, I'll leave. I don't need the added stress.
also, I'd like to apologize to Sean for crapping on his thread.
I haven't tried on my new one, but my old pp256 would shock the heck out of me from lack of a good ground, no gloves, and the hf looking for something to do. And I do not mean a little tickle, I mean a lot and often. I'm guessing of you pull that trigger and are not WAY out of the 'easiest path to ground' parameter, you're going to catch some HF. From just about any sort of equipment of that power.
You won't believe this; our humidity runs in the single digits out here. Phoenix had a whole week of 2 to 5% humidity last month.
I don't care about a tone of voice in an email or a forum. If you have a strong vocabulary and a want to not be verbose, it's going to come through as terse, by design or by sparsity.
Interesting problem, first I would check the position of the ground clamp keep it near the weld but not so any part of your body touches in between it and the torch, electricity like water takes the path of least resistance, next wet your ground clamp and wiggle it back and forth on the aluminum so you break through the scum/oxide layer making a good connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanMurphy265
Generally speaking, aluminum that is riveted is not suitable for welding, if it was, they would have welded the seams not riveted them at the factory.
ken, you're correct, but that's not the end of the story. the HF is also high voltage. coupled with the high frequency, it allows the current to jump from conductive particles along the edges of non-conductive objects, jump through thin worn gloves, ect. the actual paths high voltage high-frequency electricity takes are still somewhat of a mystery as the variations in conductivity that decide where it will go are so minute. I assume most people will have played with or at least seen a tesla coil. the HF generator in a tig welder is similar to the primary side of a tesla coil, spark gap and all. I'm actually somewhat surprised that more tig welders haven't gone to solid state frequency generation, though.
anyway, that's all well and good, but what you need to know as a welder is your HF is probably not going to go to ground at the same place your main welding arc is and it often does some crazy things on the way there. there was a guy on WTT who's sprinkler would turn on whenever he lit up. I think it was coupling to an old pipe, but I'll see if I can find the thread. also, don't put your cell anywhere near your welding setup while tigging with HF. I haven't personally fried one, but I've heard of it happening. as will all things, better safe than sorry.
Hey, thanks for all the input I see what could have been going on.
I did have my ground far away from where I was welding, which I will change.
I do work with the same gloves I was welding, and that includes grinding.
My gloves were wet with sweat.
I finished welding on the riveted John boat, I will never weld on another one again. It was a lesson well learned, and one I will not repeat. I have been shocked when welding before, I was wondering if I had a short somewhere, because I would get shocked when I feed the rod into the puddle. Thanks for all the help I learned a little something from everyone.
Sean,
As I said, when you are feeding the filler rod into the puddle, with wet gloves, it wouldn't be HF, since HF isn't used except for starting. Its just plain ole salty sweat through gloves. You also may be putting the rod under the arc instead of in front of it. You want the metal to get drawn in, rather than melted off under the arc...in this case your rod becomes conductive as it is a "bridge" between the work and the electrode as your body is completing the circuit somewhere. What kind of gloves are you using? Are they regular welding gloves or tig gloves? I found an excellent compromise between sensitivity and heat protection and coolness with the new Tilman Onyx stick gloves. Absolutely the best gloves I have ever tried.
Mark, keep up the great posts. I've never seen this guy start posting on here until the new contest and it seems like he's trying to start this bickering to pad his post count. May not be the case but perception is reality.
To the OP, looks like ya got a lot of good advice. Sometimes if I tig w/ wet gloves and hold the torch on the back rubber neck I will get a slight shock. Part of the game. Also, is your HF ground hooked up to a ground rod?
"Mark, keep up the great posts. I've never seen this guy start posting on here until the new contest and it seems like he's trying to start this bickering to pad his post count. May not be the case but perception is reality."
We were all 22 years old one time and I know when I was 22 I KNEW EVERYTHING and everybody else was WRONG about EVERYTHING. Now at 52 I realize I KNEW NOTHING and still don't. Ignorance is bliss but bliss takes maturity that only comes with age.
Thanks for all your hard work Mark. I know what a problem moderation can be.
Thurmond
I am using these gloves http://www.harborfreight.com/general...rge-68308.html I realize I should be using welding gloves, I do have a pair of tig gloves, for whatever reason I have never been one to use welding gloves. I will get a pair of Tillman gloves! I was welding bent over out position, so I am sure I was feeding the rod into the arc at times. Thanks for all the help, I could not figure out why I was getting shocked, and it was driving me crazy. I had been shocked before, especially when tacking.
Sean, do you mind elaborating on this? A while back I picked up an old Grumman canoe that needs some repair, which is why I started looking for a welder and found Everlast. Never weld on one again because of the shocks?Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanMurphy265
If you're on concrete with shoes or boots that have threads and your feet sweat, you are a fair conductor to ground through them. But you need a complete path to get shocked. Now put your gloves, jacket, whatever is soaked with sweat on the metal you are welding or table or filler. A new path to ground. You will feel it. Promise.
I would not want to be welding while leaning on an aluminum john boat with no jacket and shoes. All the jumping around, the welds would look pretty bad.
They warp very bad because of the heat needed to get a puddle going. You could skip weld, but I think it would still warp. I've welded aluminum in the past, but it has been a while since I have welded any aluminum. Its seems normally the more you weld aluminum I tend to back off the heat to weld. This boat I had to pour the heat to get it to weld. I cleaned up the metal very well, but it was still contaminated. I'm sure sitting in the water and weather over the years had something to do with that. If I had a spool gun I would have tried that, and I also would like to try brazing to see if it would work better. I came to the logic that was posted above, if it were meant to be welded it would have came welded! Halfway through I started to call the guy and tell him to come pick it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveO
v
Usually if an aluminum object is not initially assembled by welding (it is joined by riveting or some other method) then the aluminum alloy used is NOT weldable. Paraphrase from Jody of WeldingTipsandTricks.com
Thurmond
Or in a case of a canoe, it was before they had welders? LOL Most likely if it is older though, the factory found it was cheaper to rivet than to weld and didn't want to invest the $$$ into it. Worth a try if you can get the metal clean. I've seen many holes repaired on them with welding myself.
Before they had welders, or maybe just out of habit: didn't the Grumman canoe people build aircraft in WW II?
The canoe in question has holes and I may TIG repair them eventually... but reading these forums has told me that TIG will not be the "pick it up and go" I had in mind. Whenever I start thinking How tough could it be I usually find out EXACTLY how tough it can be.
Or they actually need to have some strength in the part, or couldn't weld for corrosion reasons. The reduction in strength of non post weld heat treated aluminum for most common weldable alloys is quite high, especially with heat treatable alloys. Most 5000 series alloys don't lose a great deal of ultimate strength (yield still suffers) from welding, but then again, most 5000 series alloys aren't as strong as say heat treated 6061 to start with. Weldable 7000 series alloy (usually 7005) is pretty much only available in tube form, and is easier to get in Europe. It is used on bicycle frames.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritium
I have welded "unweldable" 7000 and 2000 series alloys, including Aluminum Lithium alloys....but that was with Friction Stir Welding, not conventional fusion welding.
Either way, keep an eye on the welded areas as they may crack again, or could corrode quite fast as compared to the base metal.
Is the possibly accelerated corrosion of/in the weld area purely due to the changed temper from the heating?
Supposing one is using 6061-T6; to restore its original temper, would one simply repeat the T6 process?
used to happen when i first started using tig. never could figure out why till i checked the ground and my gloves after that hasn't happened since.
Sean , look on the bright side, with all that self inflicted shock therapy, you are probably the most sane member of this group. The fact you may be a bit jumpy around riveted boats will pass with time.
I'm glad I learned that it was me, at first I thought something was wrong with my torch. It seems that I did everything possible to shock myself. I picked up a new pair of tig gloves to start with.
It seemed to me I got a lot more shocks before I closed the spark gap down to .030" as recommended. In fact I don't think I've got a single zap since then except for when I forgot the ground clamp and got myself into the ground path.
I'm bad though and often don't wear gloves.
The gap will not stop the zap. Like StarvingArtist said and I am in Florida as well. Always humid here and hot here.
Dry gloves, clamp close to weld, dry boots if they have thread going through the bottom. Let the power go to the best ground path and make sure that's not you.
When I got my PM256, I also got shocks while tig welding. I opened the torch handle and found the rubber insulation was cut when the two haves were assembled. A little Scotch electrical tape and that solved 95% of my problem, Ya I'm a quick weld and many times don't use gloves! but use a couple shop towels/rags under my arm for stability(after 55+ years of welding steady hands are at a premium) and insulation.
Shocks are not appreciated but keep you on your toes!!
Most shoe soles are black, there is carbon added to the rubber. This makes a good resistor just enough to complete your sweaty socks to ground. Many import shoes are seldom rubber they're a poly bled of anything at hand! Good for static electric shocks after scuffing you feet on the carpet then touching a persons neck!!
dwdw
You know, I'll bet that's my problem too. When I fixed the gap I also got a new torch which I'm using about 90% of the time. Could also account for my 90% reduction in shocks I suppose! I'll take the old one apart and have a look.