everlast vs Longevity ?

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Originally Posted by Mr120

It's OK to import stuff but it just doesn't seem right for them to then turn around and appear to deceive their customers by saying it's "their factory" and that they designed the stuff.

It's pretty clear to me that Everlast works closely with their factory. It's also clear to me that Everlast isn't a clearance center for surplus products. Given the amount of product Everlast sells, I'm pretty sure that Everlast will be around for quite a while to provide service and advice when I need it.

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But Everlast is just a sales channel for certain welder factories in China. Sure, there is some customization done by the factory for a supplier, but it must be either paid work up front, or on contractual obligation for certain volumes, but let's be clear, the ownership of the IP, design, and production capability of the welders is all with the factory which is also supplying equipment to multiple channels.

When I first joined this forum, that is what surprised me - how little Everlast knew of the inners of their machines, and how the factory had complete control over that IP/design. I mean the real inners, the internal electrical design, the software code. Everlast does know enough to do a decent job of support, but often they have to go back to the factory to ask about a feature or parameters. When a new welder is introduced, they are often learning of features along with the customers...

To be clear, this is not a bad thing, it's just the way it works. The failure of the 250EXT was a classic case, the factory basically screwed up, the testing that Everlast performed did not catch the issues, and finally the initial users found them and objected. Everlast was caught between their customers and the factory, not a good place to be. During that time, there were constant "we need to check with the factory" type responses.

That is why you see lots of suppliers with very similar looking machines under different labels, they are often from the same source. In that environment, the selection of which "supplier" to go with comes down to price and service. Everlast is trying to build their brand on service, mostly successfully, and a bit on price. They are not the cheapest on the market, but one of the best for service.

About to how stable Everlast is, they have a good track record, but if they do not keep the revenue flowing with new sales to feed the machine, they can disappear really quick. I do not think they any tangible assets like a typical high tech company would have, like patent protected designs, proprietary production techniques, factory capabilities, etc. The funny thing is, if a company failure happens, I am sure someone will find out the source factory in China, and for spares/etc. we can look at dealing direct, or find another supplier selling the same welder in a different color.

Cheers,

Mike

As far as the differences between Everlast and Longevity some posts are fairly accurate as far as they go but the real in depth truths would surprise a lot of people. Other posters like to portray themselves as some type of experts in Everlast business and I have seen these same posters with there opinions and statements being so far off the mark it borders on the ludricous.
Cheers

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Originally Posted by Mike J

I do not think they any tangible assets like a typical high tech company would have, like patent protected designs.....

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LOL Patents are so overrated. I think they are more of an advertising gimmick that actually offering protection.... that is unless you are a multibillion dollar company and then you can litigate all the small fries out of business.

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Originally Posted by titan winch

as far as the differences between everlast and longevity some posts are fairly accurate as far as they go but the real in depth truths would surprise a lot of people. Other posters like to portray themselves as some type of experts in everlast business and i have seen these same posters with there opinions and statements being so far off the mark it borders on the ludricous.
Cheers

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well said duncan !

Then tell us the truth o wise one....

Having a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. As Duncan said, as a ground man in China, some of the comments border on ludicrous. But in short, why would we show all our cards to help our competitors...or to our customers for that matter and tell them what is going on in deep within the company? We are transparent as we can be, but I find the companies that talk the loudest have the least going on. As far as things go, I've had in depth discussion with factory representatives from the "majors". One went so far as to admit to me, that they routinely copied other designs and made just enough changes to keep them legal. He went of further to say that, As soon as another company released a "new" product, that on the day of the release, that product would be torn down and the design team would start working on design solutions to work around patents IF any, before the end of the work day..."There's a lot of parity in our products between their and our products" he said. These companies are also scouring the world over bringing new designed products from all over the globe, including China back to the U.S. to study and copy themselves. I believe Duncan has run into a few of these "spies" while he is in China on a routine basis...and even eaten a meal or two with them.

I am real novice at welding, and just getting into it, so the channel and the value add of the channel is clearly the deciding factor when dealling with import equipment. Eastwood is a good source for a lot of things, welders is NOT their only business, and the longevity welders are probably OK, I just thought the Everlast was a better package, had more positive discussions, and Jody's videos are great for learning how it shoud be done. He is great with flowing the information quickly clearly and concisely. I got a much better feeling for how the Everlast operates from his site and videos. Also, I am an EE, and have been in the computer engineering business for 39 years, with IBM. I know solid electronic design and packaging when I see it. I have been under the covers on my 210EXT, and can see many areas for improvement, but like what I see. Less discrete wiring, potted circuit boards, minimal circuit paths, and modularconstruction that can be easily serviced. (Also looked under the covers of some Miller, Lincoln and off brand other imports.

Everlast appears to do well on the sales and warranty part, from what I see.

I would think that a better service Manual, trouble shooting and design that is better at diagnosing, and localizing failures to a FRU (Field Replaceable Unit), that can be shipped to the user for (qualified) users to self replace would be a big improvement over shipping the whole box back for service and waiting several weeks. That would take some better diagnostics, schematics and trouble shooting information, as well as some rediesign of packaging to improve user serviceability, and safety. Then there is the liability issue and continued warranty coverage, in case the user introduces more damage while servicing. Not a simple or quick solution.

An alternative would be a refurbished/loaner program, where the user can order a temp loaner, by securing with a credit card, then using that box to return their defective unit for service, then when it comes back, return the loaner to the pool, using that box would be a killer support strategy. Depending on the failure rate and time to repair, the extra inventory may be good or bad (only Everlast can know). That would ease concerns among the pros that can't tolerate downtime. Even if it were offered as a premium service option for a slight incremental cost, it would be attractive option.

Then there are always the "ain't made in America, can't be good" rednecks out there. They obviously don't have televisions, stereos, microwaves, cell phones etc. Or have not looked inside to see the componenets. This is a Romney 47% issue: No matter what you do, you will not ever win them over.

I discovered Everlast after I bought some other stuff from HF and Northern, and they are all good for what they are. I don't hesitate to loan my cheapo HF flux welder to my neighbor's kid to play and learn with. Otherwise I would have gone with the Everlast MTS200 or 250 for my Mig needs, vs the Northern Hybrid 200. (Everlast has postflow, downslope, and a real Tig Pedal, and is also spoolgun ready). Fine print on the Northern is that the spool gun was only rated for 160amps. Not really enough for thicker aluminum MIG welding. Everlast MTS250 with a 250W spoolgun would be a much better approach. Like I said, I am still learning.

Sorry for the rambling, but I had some time on my hands.

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Originally Posted by ShaneJackson

LOL Patents are so overrated. I think they are more of an advertising gimmick that actually offering protection.... that is unless you are a multibillion dollar company and then you can litigate all the small fries out of business.

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Lets see, I have started several companies now, three of them in high tech, and in two of the three cases the Patents were a very tangible asset that made the company more valuable, and as a result more money in my pockets. In North America, is more than an "advertising gimmick" - and I am saying that from actually being there, and even using it for defending our products. I was just using patents just as an example anyways, and given the free-flow of IP in China and lack of protection for design rights, its more of a matter of which factory has the best engineers, the best industrial espionage (which is what Mark is saying), the fastest to market, and the best customers that suggest and push for features that results in the best welders. I think that is were Everlast comes in, they can take their ideas and customer feedback and feed it back to the "factory" to be incorporated into new designs that can be brought to market (which the others like Longevity does as well). Its definitely a race!

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Originally Posted by Big Paulie

(Also looked under the covers of some Miller, Lincoln and off brand other imports.

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So, what did you see there?

cheers,

Mike

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Originally Posted by Mike J

Lets see, I have started several companies now, three of them in high tech, and in two of the three cases the Patents were a very tangible asset that made the company more valuable, and as a result more money in my pockets. In North America, is more than an "advertising gimmick" - and I am saying that from actually being there, and even using it for defending our products. I was just using patents just as an example anyways, and given the free-flow of IP in China and lack of protection for design rights, its more of a matter of which factory has the best engineers, the best industrial espionage (which is what Mark is saying), the fastest to market, and the best customers that suggest and push for features that results in the best welders. I think that is were Everlast comes in, they can take their ideas and customer feedback and feed it back to the "factory" to be incorporated into new designs that can be brought to market (which the others like Longevity does as well). Its definitely a race!

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Again, Mike, you miss the point by your pontificating and are wrong on some many levels. My point was that US companies are in the East doing their own ripping and robbing...and they have similar situations to what we have. Lincoln manufactures in China, and Italy. Thermal arc is well into China as well. Miller is now admitting to "assembled" in the USA. Our situation is quite similar to theirs in how things are done...and they ALL had similar issues that we have had.

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Originally Posted by Mike J

Lets see, I have started several companies now, three of them in high tech, and in two of the three cases the Patents were a very tangible asset that made the company more valuable, and as a result more money in my pockets. In North America, is more than an "advertising gimmick" - and I am saying that from actually being there, and even using it for defending our products. I was just using patents just as an example anyways, and given the free-flow of IP in China and lack of protection for design rights, its more of a matter of which factory has the best engineers, the best industrial espionage (which is what Mark is saying), the fastest to market, and the best customers that suggest and push for features that results in the best welders. I think that is were Everlast comes in, they can take their ideas and customer feedback and feed it back to the "factory" to be incorporated into new designs that can be brought to market (which the others like Longevity does as well). Its definitely a race!

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I haven't seen any evidence of that particular part (bolded) of your post. I absolutely agree with everything else.

Mike J

keep on topic and try to keep to more facts and not theory

on our forum post actual facts .. and you should join Longevity forum and post you theory there

Longevity warranty period is only 1 year for most of their machines now. Everlast might be a little more expensive on most of their models but the 5 year warranty more than makes up for it. You don't have much faith in your product if all you have is a 1 year warranty and your saying your stuff is junk.

They "retroactively" changed their warranty. The product they say only has one year had a 5 year warranty about 2 years ago (or less). They were spouting it all over, trying to convince people they were like us...Now they are denying it, and erasing threads that dealt with it.

I have been looking at both companies machines for awhile trying to decide. I was very surprised to see the drop in Longevity's warranty which I think was a huge mistake but was flabbergasted at the price increases they had at the first of the year. I realize that prices do change as production costs go up but $300-$500 per many of the machines is a huge jump It definitely pushes me toward the Everlast brand.

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Originally Posted by Rocketman

I have been looking at both companies machines for awhile trying to decide. I was very surprised to see the drop in Longevity's warranty which I think was a huge mistake but was flabbergasted at the price increases they had at the first of the year. I realize that prices do change as production costs go up but $300-$500 per many of the machines is a huge jump It definitely pushes me toward the Everlast brand.

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You would not have gone wrong with Everlast in the past. Now it looks real clear ;)

I Chose the Everlast I-Mig 140E because of the Inverter design.

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Originally Posted by everlastsupport

You would not have gone wrong with Everlast in the past. Now it looks real clear ;)

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Yes it does make it a lot clearer.:D I had been looking at the reputations of both companies and comparing machine/features/costs of both.