Need some pros & cons in buying spool gun VS an AC machine.

I recently purchased a MTS 251si. I was considering a 200DV but at the last minute opted for the bigger machine because of the synergic function and I thought it came with a spool gun per the pictures in the product listing. This will mostly be used on a farm, for greenhouse work, and making 4'*8' aluminum troughs. It appears that the AC for aluminum is for more cosmetic precise work. A spool gun is $400 and for a little over $700 I can get an AHP.

I could just get another mig gun that is short with a teflon sleeve and reserve it for aluminum also.

Since I am a novice what will be the most pain free for me. I have done very little welding on steel and have NO experience on aluminum. I am retired basically and the farm is to keep me active so time is not a critical factor. A lot of what I do will be experimental.

Any thought and suggestions will be helpful.

Do you have a link where you saw that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by performance

Do you have a link where you saw that?

---

Hey mark, Where I saw what?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hcforde

Hey mark, Where I saw what?

---

The 251si advertised with a spool gun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zoama

The 251si advertised with a spool gun.

---

On the page that has the 251si, there are icons on the top right hand side, one of them is a spool gun. There is no indication there that the spool gun is optional. The only machines I considered prior to this purchase was the 200DV because of the AC/DC capability. I looked at the 185DV briefly but changed my mind when I saw the 200DV, it looked like so much more machine. When I was ready to order there were no 200DV's available so since I was also a novice, the Synergic mode seemed like a great plus to get me to a starting point quickly then be able to adjust from that workable point. Neither the 185DV or the 200DV had a spool gun icon. For clarity you might want to change that.

http://www.everlastgenerators.com/pr...si-tig-package

The 185 and 200DV don't have spool gun capability. If you look down at what's included, you'll see it doesn't include a spool gun for the 251si. Also it is listed under options. This is advertising capabiliities of the unit, not necessarily included items. But since we have items listed for what is included,and optional, coupled with pictures of what is included, a customer doing any due diligence shouldn't have any problem. If this was a problem, after 3 years on the current site and 3 or 4 on the site before this one, I would have heard of it before now. When we didn't have these up there, we'd get questions if a MIG was spool gun capable almost daily. No MIG, unless it is a special package or marked as a "bonus buy" is sold with a MIG gun as standard equipment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by performance

The 185 and 200DV don't have spool gun capability. If you look down at what's included, you'll see it doesn't include a spool gun for the 251si. Also it is listed under options. This is advertising capabiliities of the unit, not necessarily included items. But since we have items listed for what is included,and optional, coupled with pictures of what is included, a customer doing any due diligence shouldn't have any problem. If this was a problem, after 3 years on the current site and 3 or 4 on the site before this one, I would have heard of it before now. When we didn't have these up there, we'd get questions if a MIG was spool gun capable almost daily. No MIG, unless it is a special package or marked as a "bonus buy" is sold with a MIG gun as standard equipment.

---

Where have I accused you guys of anything shady? No where!!! Please read my original post and tell me where I have made an accusation against you. I said I am a novice. I also said I THOUGHT it came with a spool gun. I am asking for pros and cons on buying a spool gun VS an AC capable machine and you have not even touched that!!! I talked with Richard a couple of times when I was considering the 200DV and once after buying and receiving the 251si. I never mentioned the spool gun thing to him because it was not an issue with me. NOW!!! can you assist me in my question?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hcforde

It appears that the AC for aluminum is for more cosmetic precise work...

Any thought and suggestions will be helpful.

---

Yes the TIG process with AC is a more precise and potentially more cosmetic process for welding aluminum. It also requires a bit more skill and practice. Aluminum in general will require more practice to get quality welds. It is much less forgiving than steel as far as settings and technique. For typical farm duty a spoolgun using MIG is probably the way to go. Don't bother going down the teflon liner and short gun route, as a novice it will cause you nothing but grief. I would advise that you get more steel MIG welding under your belt, before switching to aluminum. The skills you acquire will go a long way to a better first experience with aluminum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambozo

Yes the TIG process with AC is a more precise and potentially more cosmetic process for welding aluminum. It also requires a bit more skill and practice. Aluminum in general will require more practice to get quality welds. It is much less forgiving than steel as far as settings and technique. For typical farm duty a spoolgun using MIG is probably the way to go. Don't bother going down the teflon liner and short gun route, as a novice it will cause you nothing but grief. I would advise that you get more steel MIG welding under your belt, before switching to aluminum. The skills you acquire will go a long way to a better first experience with aluminum.

---

Thanks for your reply and being on topic with the concern that I have.

Concerning making these 4' * 8' troughs, they will be 12" high and filled with water to about 8" . what thickness of aluminum should I be looking at. I know I will have to reinforce the sides longitudinally . The bottom (outside)will have a 1/2" 4'*8' OSB for support.

Thanks, as a novice you always second guess yourself especially when you make a last minute change. I additional reasons I chose the MTS 251si (over the 200DV) is because of greater power, longer duty cycle, and it seems like Mig will be faster when I start doing aluminum over the TIG aluminum process. It is probably way more machine than I will need and I most likely will never outgrow its capabilities I again thank you for your reply.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hcforde

I recently purchased a MTS 251si. I was considering a 200DV but at the last minute opted for the bigger machine because of the synergic function and I thought it came with a spool gun per the pictures in the product listing. This will mostly be used on a farm, for greenhouse work, and making 4'*8' aluminum troughs. It appears that the AC for aluminum is for more cosmetic precise work. A spool gun is $400 and for a little over $700 I can get an AHP.

I could just get another mig gun that is short with a teflon sleeve and reserve it for aluminum also.

Since I am a novice what will be the most pain free for me. I have done very little welding on steel and have NO experience on aluminum. I am retired basically and the farm is to keep me active so time is not a critical factor. A lot of what I do will be experimental.

Any thought and suggestions will be helpful.

---

FWIW, I "am" successfully welding 3/16" AL with an everlast 140e. This is also without a spool gun. All I can say is, short circuit/globular mig welding is entirely possible. It is harder than spraying, but it will work very well for the hobbyist. Preheating is recommended, but other than a lot of spatter "on the floor" the welds look really good and are strong. Oh yeah, .035 5356 wire is what I'm using. It is much stiffer than 4043, which I'm sure would not work without a spoolgun.
FPSgrass@aol.com

If you used .030 or smaller wire with the gun, it would be ideal as it should spray.

Gee, that's interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by performance

If you used .030 or smaller wire with the gun, it would be ideal as it should spray.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hcforde

Thanks for your reply and being on topic with the concern that I have.

Concerning making these 4' * 8' troughs, they will be 12" high and filled with water to about 8" . what thickness of aluminum should I be looking at. I know I will have to reinforce the sides longitudinally . The bottom (outside)will have a 1/2" 4'*8' OSB for support.

Thanks, as a novice you always second guess yourself especially when you make a last minute change. I additional reasons I chose the MTS 251si (over the 200DV) is because of greater power, longer duty cycle, and it seems like Mig will be faster when I start doing aluminum over the TIG aluminum process. It is probably way more machine than I will need and I most likely will never outgrow its capabilities I again thank you for your reply.

---

Well that's over half a ton of water. The real trick will be what tools you have on hand to form the sides. If you can do some bending, you can make the sides stiff enough to be self supporting, otherwise you will need a frame or pretty thick material to make that out of. Also there is a difference between making a strong serviceable weld, and making a water tight weld. The later is a hell of a lot harder. However, you might actually find it easier to weld thicker materials, than what is required. If you can make them circular, it would work with a lot thinner material as the forces involved would be in balance. Also if they will be subject to other forces, that can have a big impact on how tough they need to be. Farm items always seem to get rough service, from people and animals. What you're describing is basically a small flat bottom aluminum bass boat. If that would do the job, you will be looking at about the same materials and techniques. Like a rolled gunnel or some tubing at the top, and thin sheet sides and bottom.

Looks like you picked the right welder for the job, TIG is a slower process and takes time to learn for most. You will be shocked at how well MIG will do aluminum. And Post 8 (Rams) is spot on, skip the teflon route, put the money towards the spool gun.

We sometimes use the spool gun for steel, just to have twice the hose length, like if you need to get to the other side of a trailer without turning the trailer around or moving the welder around. Or you could also make up an extension cord. What are the troughs for, animals?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambozo

Well that's over half a ton of water. The real trick will be what tools you have on hand to form the sides. If you can do some bending, you can make the sides stiff enough to be self supporting, otherwise you will need a frame or pretty thick material to make that out of. Also there is a difference between making a strong serviceable weld, and making a water tight weld. The later is a hell of a lot harder. However, you might actually find it easier to weld thicker materials, than what is required. If you can make them circular, it would work with a lot thinner material as the forces involved would be in balance. Also if they will be subject to other forces, that can have a big impact on how tough they need to be. Farm items always seem to get rough service, from people and animals. What you're describing is basically a small flat bottom aluminum bass boat. If that would do the job, you will be looking at about the same materials and techniques. Like a rolled gunnel or some tubing at the top, and thin sheet sides and bottom.

---

These will be used in a protected environment in a greenhouse. no animals around. Making it watertight being more difficult is not something I had thought of. Especially me being a novice though that makes sense because I do not have the skills for good penetration as of yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by everlastsupport

Looks like you picked the right welder for the job, TIG is a slower process and takes time to learn for most. You will be shocked at how well MIG will do aluminum. And Post 8 (Rams) is spot on, skip the teflon route, put the money towards the spool gun.

We sometimes use the spool gun for steel, just to have twice the hose length, like if you need to get to the other side of a trailer without turning the trailer around or moving the welder around. Or you could also make up an extension cord. What are the troughs for, animals?

---

They are for Hydroponic grow beds

If your welds don't hold water you could seal the joints with many different products like http://www.shop3m.com/3m-window-weld...cartridge.html Costs about $25 a tube at your local auto parts store but you have to ask for it. Most stores don't put it out on the shelf. I've repaired fwd motor mounts with it. Super strong bond. I believe you could just cut out the pieces and glue them together with that stuff. 8" of water will produce very little hydraulic pressure.

You may have to coat the tanks, anyway. Aluminum can and will react with a lot of the chemicals used in fertilizers. It might not be the ideal material for that application. Fiberglass, on the other hand works great and is pretty easy to work with from a DIY aspect.

We did not use chemical fertilizers when my son went into the hydo veggie green house hobby mode. Fish did the work for us. But we did use clean 55 gallon plastic drums (cut in 1/2) for the drain fields and 2 very large in-ground plastic ponds to make ours. So ours was all plastic. Used PVC for the green house frame and clear roll out plastic to cover and seal it.

I love 3M stuff, but make sure it does not leech any chemicals. There is a 5200 marine stuff you can get too (home depot has it). Expensive though, jamestown distributors seems to have it cheaper.

Hi. I like what you said about using the 5000 series wire, and also the .035 wire because it's more stiff. I got my cert using a mig gun, so it can work without the bird nesting problem. The one thing I noticed was the initial feed was not a problem. It was only after the electrode was attached bird nesting would occur. It's been pointed out to me that going up one size on the electrode might cure most of the issue, but as yet I haven't personally tried it, but I will.