Welding magnets vs clamps

With the upcoming frame project and a few others, I decided to invest in some fixturing tools. Hopefully I can buy a table before long, but even after I do, I'm wondering y'alls preference, magnets or clamps?

I've found magnets can mess with the arc a little, but aside from that, do you prefer using magnets to fix angles or corner clamps, vise-grips, etc. and why?

Right tool for the right job, and I'm sure certain things call for one or the other, I'm meaning in general. Not a lot of room in my budget (if you can call what's under the couch cushions a budget) so I figure I'd get some input before buying a bunch of stuff this weekend.

I have been using magnets for MIG welding for about 8 years, vise-grips on occasion mainly on project demand. Magnets have their drawbacks, you get it all lined up and you bring another piece of metal close and the magnet snaps to it, wrecking your precise alignment. I have been using clamps for stick welding though...

Mags or clamps, each has it"s place, however I have found that the dial indicator mag base which has a nob to turn on and off to be a cheap but handy device, especially if you add a tiny clamp on the rod where the dial indicator usually goes, sort of like a third hand fo small stuff. The base gives nice 90"s for small pieces and holds pretty firm.

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Originally Posted by I_Love_Plasma

I have been using magnets for MIG welding for about 8 years, vise-grips on occasion mainly on project demand. Magnets have their drawbacks, you get it all lined up and you bring another piece of metal close and the magnet snaps to it, wrecking your precise alignment. I have been using clamps for stick welding though...

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Been there, done that... this project should be fairly easy in that regard, just a bunch of 90* angles on corners. The next few, well, that random snapping may be a pain. Have you had any problems keeping alignment with the magnets? I've only used them for 'open' forms, never something with 4 sides and thus 4 90's.

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Originally Posted by geezer

Mags or clamps, each has it"s place, however I have found that the dial indicator mag base which has a nob to turn on and off to be a cheap but handy device, especially if you add a tiny clamp on the rod where the dial indicator usually goes, sort of like a third hand fo small stuff. The base gives nice 90"s for small pieces and holds pretty firm.

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Those are both great and frustrating :) I almost launched a HF one the other day, was trying to center stock in a 10" 4 jaw chuck on the lathe and the base kept popping loose and flipping back to off. I stopped and had a smoke and by the end of the cig, the overwhelming desire to impart the stand to the wall across the shop had subsided. Most I've seen are plastic housings, do you run into heat related issues with them?

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Originally Posted by Trip59

Been there, done that... this project should be fairly easy in that regard, just a bunch of 90* angles on corners. The next few, well, that random snapping may be a pain. Have you had any problems keeping alignment with the magnets? I've only used them for 'open' forms, never something with 4 sides and thus 4 90's.

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I have never welded a complete frame in one shot, normally I weld the two "L's", then weld the two "L's" together. I'm not old enough to buy cigarettes....so I just stand there boiling and grumbling through my nose like a freightliner with straight pipes. :P I've always had problems not putting enough tacks. It ends up pulling this way or that and frustrating me. I'll learn eventually.

Seriously, you're not old enough to buy smokes? I've not read every post you've made, but I'd have placed you squarely in the 'sin tax' age bracket from those I've read...

I like the 2 L idea, I hadn't gotten far enough in planning to decide how to do that yet, but that sounds like a solid idea. The real catch on these, aside from me being a bit rusty, is that I have to come out with 4 of them identical in dimensions. One, no problem, two that oppose each other, not a big deal. 4 that will be set up side by side in pairs of 2, well, I'm a little anxious. They're decorative frames that will be on the outside of windows, two windows about 6' apart, two frames on each window, sort of like shutters.

I did think far enough ahead and bought enough steel to make 6 ;) with some left over, so worst case, I have another addition to my 'shop stock' of drops and cut-offs.

I really wish I had a TIG already, I'd much preferred to do these in aluminum, my HH125 won't do AL, so 16ga steel it is

Really I'm surprised the the HH125 won't work on aluminum. We have a HH120 and it can with special wire and pure argon. Yep no joke, 20yo, thanks for the compliment! :) I grew up too fast, encourage any teenagers you know to slow down and enjoy it.

Hmm, yeah that could be a definite challenge getting the uniformity on 4 pieces. I can't remember what size your pieces will be. But I'm wondering if you could do some thing like this: Attachment 3307 using the rails and stringers to clamp against. This will hold it tight, and you should get good uniformity from frame to frame if you use the same rails and stringers for every piece.

ILP

Ah, 20, it's been so long (can count in decades) since I've been carded for anything, I didn't know smokes weren't 18 anymore...

That's roughly what I'll be doing, I do have the pipe clamps the size to do that, it's mainly the corners I'm worried about though.

I think, now looking at your drawing, that the best thing may be to weld up the inside first, then the outer frame will have a structure to help hold it in place, welding the sides then the corners...

That's just about spot on, with the exception that there may be 1 or 2 divisions inside the long narrow sides... not sure yet.

Hobart welders won't push AL, you have to run a spool gun, and those only attach to the 185+ sizes. Probably has to do with the connections (small ones are hardwired) as well as the available power and DC only aspect of the small units. I rarely use AL for anything, even going forward all planned projects will be steel, stainless, brass, bronze, perhaps titanium. Never having had an issue with multiple passes, and budget being tight, the HH125 was a perfect fit at the time, and still is, MIG wise. I'll be adding a TIG and Plasma cutter before I even think about an upgrade on the MIG.

I suppose I could drop a pipe clamp diagonal to 'square it up' after welding, as I often do with carpentry projects such as boxes and cabinets. A little pull here or there squares it up nicely before attaching a back.

Oh okay I must be mistaken on the HH120 then. Good to know I can't use it...the I-MIG can :)

Sounds like you have a winning plan. Slop counts in pool billiards, but not in welding. Once you get your stringers and rails welded to the frame and all you have left is the corners; you could take a "L" shaped piece that you know is dead square and clamp it to the outside of the frame then weld. Remember to check you squares: Side "A" is 3", Side "B" is 4", the diagonal (hypotenuse) is 5". :) I was A+ student in geometry. Perfect 90 degree angles every time.

ILP

My rant on the magnets is they attract (and hold) all kinds of grinding dust, chips and the like, end up being a mess. And hard to get it off there. And of course they are useless on aluminum or stainless.

Good point about metal turnings and non-ferrous metals. I own harbor freight magnets, a "seemed like a good idea at the time" purchase, but I always wind up reaching for clamps and a carpenter's square. I used the magnet literally once to pick up nuts and bolts when I kicked the container over.

DaveO,

My favorite trick for that, put them in a sandwich size ziplock turned inside out. After you pick them up, turn it rightsideout and you have them all right there. Too bad that doesn't work when welding, though aluminum foil will keep them from picking up a ton of grinder debris.

Ray, I nail them with 125psi from a small orifice blowgun before I run the magnet broom over the shop floor and driveway. Messy, but it works.

Mark sold me on the Bessey corner clamp in another thread, though I can only afford the Hobart of the same style for now. I think I'm all set on my plans for the weekend, weather cooperating.

I use clamps whenever I can, and magnets when that is the only thing that will work. Mostly for the same reasons everyone else has mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Trip59

Been there, done that... this project should be fairly easy in that regard, just a bunch of 90* angles on corners. The next few, well, that random snapping may be a pain. Have you had any problems keeping alignment with the magnets? I've only used them for 'open' forms, never something with 4 sides and thus 4 90's.

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I've done a few angles... I would do the two angles then weld to two angle pieces...Less to go wrong at once :D I used a good tack every 4-6 inches.

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Originally Posted by Trip59

The real catch on these, aside from me being a bit rusty, is that I have to come out with 4 of them identical in dimensions. One, no problem, two that oppose each other, not a big deal. 4 that will be set up side by side in pairs of 2, well, I'm a little anxious.

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If you have enough magnets I would set all the angles up and measure them ALL then tack and check again. Then do the same when you weld the angles together.

I would make the ends a little bit long so you can trim them with a chop saw.

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Originally Posted by Trip59

I think, now looking at your drawing, that the best thing may be to weld up the inside first, then the outer frame will have a structure to help hold it in place, welding the sides then the corners...

That's just about spot on, with the exception that there may be 1 or 2 divisions inside the long narrow sides... not sure yet.
I suppose I could drop a pipe clamp diagonal to 'square it up' after welding, as I often do with carpentry projects such as boxes and cabinets. A little pull here or there squares it up nicely before attaching a back.

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I would use a square then clamp it...Then I would check the angles using the Pythagorean Theorem.

The magnets have their place, but if it needs to actually be square, i use clamps and anything that looks useful at the time. The one thing I hate about magnets is that you really cant weld next to them, especially with a tig torch. The magnetic field screws up the arc.

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Originally Posted by Ray

My rant on the magnets is they attract (and hold) all kinds of grinding dust, chips and the like, end up being a mess. And hard to get it off there. And of course they are useless on aluminum or stainless.

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I use clamps and magnets but hate the dust on the magnets, as they do not sit perfectly flat due to the dust. If magnets are used, tack everything and then check it after it is tacked to ensure that everything is where it needs and re-check it during the welding process.

Weather hasn't cooperated, so I haven't gotten started yet, but I did get in the Hobart corner clamps. Quite nice actually, I know they're nowhere near as nice as the Bessey, but I'm sure they'll do the job for now.

Based on the design, I actually need to develop a custom clamping fixture, I'll post pics once it's done, but it will incorporate some of the same concepts.

As far as the magnets go, I remember freaking out the first time my arc started dancing when I got close. Really pretty neat (when it's not f-ing up welds) in how it happens, kinda neat to watch.